New Source for 455 Webley Ammo?

[Nom de Forum]

A certain amount of slack in terminology is OK. I'm not one who jumps at the chance to post a correction if someone calls a magazine a clip. But "butt plates" on a handgun is a bit much. Butt plates cover the end of the butt on a long gun. A handgun has no butt, so it has no butt plates.

The word you're looking for is "Grips".

Except when it is not. Funny thing about firearms parts nomenclature is how it varies by manufacture and nationality for essentially the same part. Manchester2 is closer to the correct Webley terminology of "Stock Plates" than you are with "Grips".

 

[manchester2]

Sorry to use the wrong term -- I'm an amateur. Hopefully people know what I meant.

 

[Nom de Forum]

Sorry to use the wrong term -- I'm an amateur. Hopefully people know what I meant.

No need to say you are sorry as we all occasionally use the "wrong" terminology. Everyone was well aware of what you meant using the term "butt plates" and take note I never made mention of the error until someone else did with another error. The vast majority of us on THR are "amateurs" but even the "professionals" are not immune from error. What most people discover on forums is that if you are going to criticize something using inaccurate terminology you should expect to have your credibility questioned. Making errors is a good learning experience and believe me I have had many of those good learning experiences!

 

[manchester2]

What most people discover on forums is that if you are going to criticize something using inaccurate terminology you should expect to have your credibility questioned.

Or in my case, paying someone a compliment
Very much appreciate this and your previous post, Nom de Forum. I completely agree -- one of the benefits of gun forums like this is having the chance to learn! You are also right about terminology sometimes differing by manufacturer/nationality.

 

[tark]

WOW! do we have another cat fight here? (Be quiet CZee, wherever you are, you know what I mean by cat fight.)

Getting to the subject, I had the cylinder throats on my MkVI reamed out. The result was a revelation, now it shoots 1 1/2 inch groups at fifteen yards, to point of aim!!! I shoot a mild handload, with a 250 gr bullet at about 700. Getting hit with that is about as comfortable as having a broom handle shoved through your body.....slowly....

My point is this, with the proper mod, and the right ammo, a MkVI can be a devastating weapon. We don't need hopped up ammo.

I, myself, will not argue with Nom de Forum, he knows more about firearms history, and history in general, than any three people I have ever met. Just my opinion....

 

[Nom de Forum]

I, myself, will not argue with Nom de Forum, he knows more about firearms history, and history in general, than any three people I have ever met. Just my opinion....

Tark, thanks for the complement but it is only knowing where to find esoteric information in my many books that makes it appear I have anything more than a better than average knowledge of history and firearms.

 

[tark]

And after you look something up, you probably remember it. You are smarter than you give yourself credit for.

Back on subject, if one has a MkVI that has been converted to 45ACP, I would strongly recommend reaming out the cylinder throats. It might lower pressures a bit, and the ACP round operates at twice he pressure of the 455. Then load it light with lead bullets. I run 255 gr bullets at 650-700. I won't shoot factory ACP rounds in mine.

I don't see the need for hopped up 455 ammo. History proved that the original was a pretty good stopper.

 

[manchester2]

‎Nom de Forum: have enjoyed your posts -- hats off!

Tark: agree with you that the old 455 standard round (eg, Mk II, VIZ etc) is plenty stout. To the point of the original post, the effort is not to argue for a "hopped up" 455 round but simply to get someone to make any 455 rounds at all. The scarcity of the caliber (Fiocchi alone still makes it, and irregularly at that) is painful for those of us who like the round but don't have the ability to hand-load. So I'm trying to convince Buffalo Bore to start making it. Beauty of the 455 is it's (a) fine in current configuration imho and (b) even if one desired "more," wouldn't have to do anything other than fill it to case capacity to achieve the old Mk III etc cartridge performance. My point in contacting them and starting the thread is that I just want them to make it, in whatever form. As long as it's safe to shoot I'll buy it.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The scarcity of the caliber (Fiocchi alone still makes it, and irregularly at that) is painful for those of us who like the round but don't have the ability to hand-load.

Which brings me back to one point -- everyone who shoots should handload.

1. The initial setup isn't all that costly.
2. You can handload for cartridges which are hard to find or non-existent on the open market.
3. You can tailor ammunition to your needs -- for example, if I wanted to shoot an original Webley, I'd stick with low-power loads.
4. You can produce your own ammo at considerably less cost that factory ammo -- particularly in rare, hard-to-find cartridges.

 

[Kaeto]

I just handloaded a batch of .455 ammo. Granted I didn't have the MkII projectile. I used this one:

http://www.buffaloarms.com/Swaged_Lead_Bullets_it-157321.aspx?CAT=4144

over 4 grains of Bullseye

I have also used this projectile in .45 ACP and .45 AR:

http://www.buffaloarms.com/Hornady_452_255_Grain_FP_Cowboy_Swaged_Bullets_it-159757.aspx?CAT=4144

 

[manchester2]

Vern: I don't disagree with you in principle, but in practice handloading is simply not an option for a lot of people. In my case, combination of lack of time, presence of small children, and lack of a physical place to do it.

 

[Ed Ames]

Using a Lee hand press and the right powder measure it really is an option for just about anyone. If you have ALS or the like, that's another story, but short of that...

Hand press: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/624416/lee-hand-press-kit

Dies: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/197309/lee-carbide-3-die-set-455-webley-mark-ii

Bullets: http://www.buffaloarms.com/455_Webley_Bullets_it-157322.aspx?CAT=4135

Brass: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/777836/bertram-reloading-brass-455-webley-box-of-20

Powder measure - use 1.0cc for trail boss loads on Webley: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/943305/lee-improved-powder-measure-kit

Or get this and use two charges (18 grains) fffg goex black powder: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/61...liber-with-9-grain-spout?cm_vc=ProductFinding

Box of primers and whichever powder you are using, sourced locally, and you can load 20 rounds at a time pretty much anywhere. As in load it on the bench at an outdoor shooting range, or on the couch watching TV, or... I'm not recommending this, but honestly while sitting on the toilet. I have tried the first two while loading .455 and can vouch for them.

If you can afford a Webley you can afford the gear and supplies needed to load and shoot it.

 

[Kaeto]

Ed what do you think of the projectiles I use?

I load on a Lee Classic press I got used for $25.00, Using the Lee .455 Webley dies I got off FleaBay. My press is set up on a small folding table and is easy to take down and store in a very small space. Some of my brass is WWII surplus .455 MK II and I have a few .455 Colt rounds.

 

[Ed Ames]

I think your choice is more cost effective, but out of stock.

Seems like you are doing it right. The main difference I see is that I usually use trail boss for antiques nowadays. But as long as the load is safe the exact powder doesn't matter too much.

 

[Kaeto]

The second one is in stock and my .455 is shaved. So I do use the ACP and AR in my Webley. I just also have a machined Disc that lets me also use Mk II ammo. Got the disc off FleaBay for $20.00.

 

[kBob]

I started handloading on the back steps with a classic Lee Loader and plastic mallet. A bud started in his easy chair with the Lee Hand loader.

In either case everything will fit in a lockable briefcase.

-kBob

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Vern: I don't disagree with you in principle, but in practice handloading is simply not an option for a lot of people. In my case, combination of lack of time, presence of small children, and lack of a physical place to do it.

Years ago, I made up a handloading kit in a locking tool box -- I had a Lee handpress, dies, electronic scales, powder, primers and bullets all in one package in the back of the closet.

 

[manchester2]

Not a bad idea. I have stockpiled plenty of brass. But need to get my hands on a tutorial.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

When you buy your handpress and dies, they each will have a tutorial. Buy a good reloading manual and that will also have a tutorial. In fact, I'd get the manual first and read it.

You'll need:

A press -- the Lee handpress is ideal for your use and cheap.

Dies for the catrtidge(s) you plan to reload.

A scale -- the cheap electronic scales are ideal.

A priming tool -- I like the Lee autopress or similar devices.

That, plus bullets, powder, brass and primers is all you need.

 

[WestKentucky]

I don't see the point as a defensive round, but absolutely so as a round to keep guns operational. The collector market is strong, even for the old neglected guns of a bygone era. A lot of us are putting rounds through guns significantly older than we are, and going to great trouble to do so. Mass market probably isn't sensible, and hot rodding black powder guns with smokeless cartridges is flat out dumb, so why not go the other direction, and make rounds which are absolutely safe to fire in the weaker guns, that will let folks fire a few rounds through the gun they inherited from grandpa. I wouldn't even care if they were plastic or hard rubber bullets. The market would be collectors, inheritors, and the same guys buying "cowboy" ammo. In fact the pressure could be cut back to a point plastic cases could be used as well so production cost would be minimal.

 

[Ed Ames]

You'll need:
...

A scale -- the cheap electronic scales are ideal.

A priming tool -- I like the Lee autopress or similar devices.

Those are good but there are other choices that will work fine and cost less.

There is a priming ram for most presses including the hand press. The kit I linked to earlier in this thread includes it.

Also, especially for .455 type cartridges you don't need a scale. Volumetric measuring is less expensive, less fussy, and works well.

 

[superc_1]

"The only two top break (not solid frame) revolver manufacturers that can use this ammunition are British Enfield and Webley. Both these models feature heavy frames and robust latches that resist deformation. All other “top break” models should never be fired with this ammunition.<

Well, how 'bout that? I guess those "millions of small revolvers", that this stuff was made for, can't use it. Looks like it is to be used in British Victories, and Smith Terriers."

A common error made by those used only to the American gun market. In reality many of the million or so 'solid frame' Bulldog revolvers that flooded Europe, Africa and Asia were available in .455 Webley. Some were in .450 too which of course means they can use appropriately loaded 455 ammo.

As I write this one of those Bulldogs sits loaded in my pocket (ok, the one in my pocket this past week is a 44 Webley and not a 455. So what?). The reality is most of tthe weaponry advances in the past century were not done for the civilian market, but for the military and law enforcement. There are very few documented cases in the US where a civilian's ability to rapidly reload played a major role in a lawful self defense shooting. It may be good for the ego to carry a 15 shot pistol for self defense (and 2 or 3 loaded magazines LoL), but the reality is a little 5 shot revolver meets the average self defense need just fine.
Did I enjoy developing a more effective 44 Webley round for my 1880 vintage Bulldogs? Yes. Do I wish I could have just bought a box? Yes. Similar with my .380 (Rook) Bulldogs. I enjoyed making Hydroshock type ammo for them, but I would have much preferred just buying a box off the shelf.

On December I sold my Webley Mk VI in original 455 (also 4 boxes of Fiocchi ammo and 2 original British military small boxes of ammo). I had shelved that thing with it's pointy bullets back in the early 1990s, but if modern more effective ammo had been available off the shelf, I probably would have never safe queened it and would still have it.

I have several Bulldogs and only last week just passed up a chance to buy one in 455. If I had known of a source for a serious round suitable for use in these old BP pocket revolvers I would have probably bought the gun.

BTW for those reloading 44 Webley, check out the bullets for the 44 Henry as they work well in my 44s.

 

[the Real Alpo]

If you are going to quote me, you should try reading what I said.

The quote you posted was in reference to Buffalo Bore making new 38 S&W ammo, NOT 455 Webley.

 

[Merle1]

For those of you who haven't seen it, ‎BuffaloBore*‎just released a reconfigured version of the .38 S&W designed to improve its suitability as a defensive round while keep it below the pressure requirements of Webley and Enfield breaktop revolvers.
‎
This got me thinking: Why not do the same with .455? This round has tremendous potential; just loading it to full powder capacity would get you to the 800 fps range (like the old Mk III round) without increasing pressure. I also think there*is a sufficient latent market among collectors to make the production of a reimagined 455 worthwhile. ‎
‎
I wrote to ‎BuffaloBore‎*and asked them.*‎I got a very nice reply saying they liked the idea and were going to look into doing it. ‎They said they would have to "get the test guns and then develop the loads" but they hoped to get it done in the next year or so.*
‎
My understanding is that ‎Buffalo Bore‎re produced the .38 SW after a lot of people wrote to them suggesting that they give it a try. So anyone who's interested in seeing .455 reproduced should write to ‎[email protected]*‎and weigh in. Who knows, if they hear interest from enough people, maybe they'll do it! ‎
‎
Considering that there's pretty much only Fiocchi still making .455 at all, it would be great to see another company produce it. ‎
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Can you direct me to it? I just got out of their catalog and didn't see anything new.

Merle

 

[manchester2]

Sorry, Merle1, just saw your post; here's the link to Buffalo Bore's revamped 38 S&W: https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=350