New to Cap and Ball Revolvers

[Animal Mother]

My grandfather, who was an avid hunter and shooter, passed away about 15 years ago and left my mother a Euroarms copy of a 1851 Colt in 36 caliber, along with a thirty cal ammo can full of BP supplies. I've recently taken an interest in black powder shooting, so she brought the gun and supplies over to my house so that I could try to get his revolver back into action. I'm familiar with modern firearms but I am a complete novice when it comes to BP shooting, and while I've figured out a good bit by reading older posts I do have a few questions...

1. The 1851 Colt has a few spots of surface rust on it, normally on a modern firearm, I'd use some CLP and 0000 steel wool to remove the rust, but since you aren't supposed to use petroleum based oils on a BP gun, what would be a readily available good substitute for a light gun oil that I could also use in the revolver’s internals as a lubricant and rust preventative? I have some T/C bore butter on order but I don’t know if the only thing it would be good for would be bore lubrication, it seems like it would be too heavy for good internal lubrication.

2. Should I use some anti-seize compound on the nipples? I’ve got some Permatex anti-seize compound from the auto-parts store that I use on lugnuts when I change tires and thought that might work.

3. My grandfather left a nearly full can of Pyrodex RS. Although intended for rifles, can or should I shoot this in the 1851 Colt? The can is ancient looking, and could be from the 1970s, it’s a cardboard and tin container constructed just like the old boxes of Nestle Quik, it may not be any good, it smells clean but there is a big chunk of solid powder along with good amount of loose powder. Regardless, I picked up a pound of Triple 7 FFFg, to start with but I just hate the idea of throwing powder away.

4. On that related note my grandfather left a nice brass powder flask full of Pyrodex, is it okay to dump out all the Pyrodex and fill the flask with Triple 7? I'd love to be able to still use the flask. Since they are both black powder substitutes, I figure it would be okay, but I know I won’t be able to get every last trace of Pyrodex out.

5. If I use a lubricated cloth patch between the ball and powder do I need to smear Crisco or Bore Butter on the cylinder face to prevent chain fires?

6. I only have one gun shop in town that stocks percussion caps, I noticed that unless I'm mistaken it doesn't look like Dixie Gun Works charges a HazMat fee, whereas Cabelas and Midway USA charge a fee for percussion caps. Are there other online retailers that don't charge that fee?

 

[nalioth]

Have you seen this wonderful thread?

How to best use a cap and ball revolver - THR

It's a great starting point.

 

[Animal Mother]

Oh I do agree it's got a lot of good info in there I've read through it, and I know I have a bunch of newbie questions. Thanks in advance for anyone who can answer any of them.

 

[mykeal]

1. The 1851 Colt has a few spots of surface rust on it, normally on a modern firearm, I'd use some CLP and 0000 steel wool to remove the rust, but since you aren't supposed to use petroleum based oils on a BP gun, what would be a readily available good substitute for a light gun oil that I could also use in the revolver’s internals as a lubricant and rust preventative? I have some T/C bore butter on order but I don’t know if the only thing it would be good for would be bore lubrication, it seems like it would be too heavy for good internal lubrication.

Using CLP to remove rust is fine. The issue with petroleum based oils and black powder guns is that the bp ignition temperatures are too low to completely burn most petroleum oils, especially the lower distillates. A messy, tar-like substance is often left as a residue of this incomplete combustion. You can use petroleum based products without concern in any area where combustion temperatures do not exist; the action parts of most all bp revolvers is one of those areas. In other areas, such as the cylinder chambers and bore, just be sure to completely clean the oils off before shooting the gun. A light mineral oil lubricant such as Ballistol, Thompson Center's No. 13, Hoppe's No. 9 Plus for Black Powder, Butch's Bore Shine, etc. are well suited for the job.

2. Should I use some anti-seize compound on the nipples? I’ve got some Permatex anti-seize compound from the auto-parts store that I use on lugnuts when I change tires and thought that might work.

Absolutely. I prefer Thompson Center's Gorilla Grease; I've never had a problem with it. I don't know if the Permatex compound will withstand the combustion temperatures and pressures or not.

3. My grandfather left a nearly full can of Pyrodex RS. Although intended for rifles, can or should I shoot this in the 1851 Colt? The can is ancient looking, and could be from the 1970s, it’s a cardboard and tin container constructed just like the old boxes of Nestle Quik, it may not be any good, it smells clean but there is a big chunk of solid powder along with good amount of loose powder. Regardless, I picked up a pound of Triple 7 FFFg, to start with but I just hate the idea of throwing powder away.

Pyrodex RS will work fine in a revolver, although with slightly reduced performance depending on the load. I'd also be concerned about the age of the powder you have; Pyrodex has a reputation for losing strength with age. But, it's safe to try. Actually, you might want to hang onto it. There are actually people out there who collect that sort of old stuff. Put it up for sale in the classifieds on teh forum.

4. On that related note my grandfather left a nice brass powder flask full of Pyrodex, is it okay to dump out all the Pyrodex and fill the flask with Triple 7? I'd love to be able to still use the flask. Since they are both black powder substitutes, I figure it would be okay, but I know I won’t be able to get every last trace of Pyrodex out.

Not a problem.

5. If I use a lubricated cloth patch between the ball and powder do I need to smear Crisco or Bore Butter on the cylinder face to prevent chain fires?

In my opinion, no. Others may have another opinion. The best insurance against a chain fire is a proper fitting ball and proper fitting caps. The ball should shave a complete ring of lead when swaged into the chamber.

6. I only have one gun shop in town that stocks percussion caps, I noticed that unless I'm mistaken it doesn't look like Dixie Gun Works charges a HazMat fee, whereas Cabelas and Midway USA charge a fee for percussion caps. Are there other online retailers that don't charge that fee?

Not in my experience, although I've never purchased caps by mail.

 

[scrat]

Always use some kind of lube i prefer lube over the ball as it aids in preventing leading of the barrel

 

[Fingers McGee]

What mykeal said. Although I'd like to expand on #5 some. C&B revolvers do not use lubricated cloth patches like single shot rifles and pistols do. Instead, a lubed felt wad between the powder and ball is used by many C&B shooters. Not only does it help seal the chamber, the heat from the powder burning melts the lube on the wad and helps lubricate the arbor as well as clean the fouling from the barrel. Mykeal is right in tha a tight fitting ball and cap are your best insurance against chainfires. IMNSHO crisco or some other grease/lube over the ball just makes a mess.

FM

 

[Al LaVodka]

I agree with the last two guys who disagree w/each other. What?

Tight ball and cap, ok. But are they when you are actually shooting? Use a lubed patch like a Wonder Wad or put a little ring of something around the top sides of the ball i.e. Bore Butter, Crisco, Vaseline, K-Y Jelly, Astroglide. Well, maybe not the last two...

Al

 

[ClemBert]

Just note that 777 is +/-15% more powerful than black powder in general. This means you would typically reduce the 777 charge by ~15% (by volume) to maintain the same "energy" as black powder. Hodgdon's loading data for a steel framed 1851 Navy (36 cal) is as follows:

20 grains 777 FFFg => 832 fps
25 grains PyrodexP => 935 fps

20 grains of 777 FFFg is similar to 23 (20 x1.15) grains of GOEX black powder.

 

[oldpuppymax]

Use of a petroleum based lube on your pistol is not a problem. Just make certain it is removed from the chambers/nipples as it can interfere with the BP ignition. Yes. Anti seize is certainly a good idea. I use Gunslick in the little metal tube. 2f will certainly work in a revolver, but will generate a somewhat smaller volume of gas upon ignition than 3f. I recommend you do NOT use any sort of patch between ball and powder in a revolver. Not ever the nice round wads specifically made for the job. They can become trapped in the barrel or between cylinder and barrel. It sure won't happen often, but it has happened. Try cornmeal to raise the ball near the chamber exit, then lube. And by all means, pick up one or more of Sam Fadala's Black powder shooting guides. They will answer all of your questions and give you a measure of confidence prior to your first real shot. Also, is your revolver frame brass or steel? Brass will require a smaller load.

 

[Mike OTDP]

First, petroleum-based lubes work fine. Just be sure to snap a cap or two on each nipple before loading. I personally use Ballistol.

Second, do not think you have to use full charges. Try ~15 grains, then fill the chamber with Cream of Wheat, leaving one bullet diameter for the round ball. Do NOT try patches...these guns were not designed for them. Put a dab of lube (Crisco is OK if you have nothing else) on top.

 

[Mike OTDP]

PS...don't dump the Pyrodex, spread it on the lawn/garden. I'm serious...it's good fertilizer.

 

[Fingers McGee]

Quote Oldpuppymax

I recommend you do NOT use any sort of patch between ball and powder in a revolver. Not ever the nice round wads specifically made for the job. They can become trapped in the barrel or between cylinder and barrel. It sure won't happen often, but it has happened.

I've been shooting C&B revolvers exclusively in CAS competition for over over 7 years, and run between 1200 and 1800 rounds a year through them. I have never seen, heard of, or had this happen. Using lubed felt wads, cylinders on my revolvers will still spin freely after 100 or more rounds.

Balistol for cleaning and lubricating and Bore Butter on the arbor will keep Colt style C&Bs running smoothly.

 

[BHP FAN]

I'm going to go with McGee on this one.I've been shooting black powder revolvers since 1974.My first revolver was a brass framed Navy ''Sheriff's'' model,and for a lot of those years Wonder Wads just were not yet available.I used a mix of Crisco and bee's wax for lube.Wads,whether home made or store bought are easier to use at the range.That,and a little bore butter on the cylinder pin,[or arbor,as Colt calls it] and that six gun will run all day.