New to loading - bullet lenght???

[johnandersonoutdoors]

Hello everyone,

I am new to reloading. I have read the ABCs and a lot of information online. I have my bench setup, have deprimed a lot of the brass that I have saved and cleaned it. I am about to start actually loading in the next couple of weeks.

The main question I have at this point is about the bullets. I have ordered some Dardas 124 grain lead 9mm bullets. My Lee loading manual gives (I don't have it in front of my right now) minimum overall lengths. I understand that the minimum overall length would prevent someone from seating the bullet too deep and creating excessive/dangerous pressures. However, what I have never seen or read about is this: are all 124 grain lead (or jacketed for that matter) bullets the same length no matter who makes them? The reason I ask is obviously because I am thinking, what if a bullet maker has 124 grain leads bullets that are longer? Seated to the same overall length, a longer bullet will be deeper in the case than a shorter 124 grain bullet seated to the same overall length.

I am assuming that since I have not seen this mentioned before, I have either missed something or all they would all be the same length across different manufacturers.

Thanks in advance for all the help.

 

[blarby]

are all 124 grain lead (or jacketed for that matter) bullets the same length no matter who makes them?

Nope, it'd be nice though, wouldn't it ?

Something else you'll find in your life of reloading is that they cant even agree what .452 or other numbers are, its a matter of tolerances.

Generally a loading manual company specifies a particular bullet, at a particular length, with a particular charge. They tell you not to deviate from this due to liability concerns.

Your best bet is to stick to published load data and bullets as you are starting out.

Now, with cast bullets- that can be tricky.

What you are going to need to do if you want the EXACT recipe, is obtain some of their bullets, and measure it against your Dardas or other bullets. Sad thing is, you'll never get their exact results- as they often use a test chamber- not your gun.

So.....

In practicality, if you start at the minimum listed charge for 9mm cast bullets, and work your way up- you will be just fine.

Just realize that a longer bullet seated to the same depth via using the same seating die setting as the shorter bullet it was originally set for, will increase pressures as you mentioned, and not always in a linear fashion.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

This is why you start low and work up. Some bullets are indeed longer than other bullets of the same weight -- a good example would be a 180 grain .308 bullet. You can get round-nose flat base bullets, and pointed bullets with a boat tail. The latter would be much longer than the former.

What I do is load to max length, not minimum length.

 

[mdi]

Another thought. You'll want to load to the OAL that fits your gun. I like to load a little longer than book data, then test the cartridge in my gun. If it doesn't chamber easily (thunk!) I'll shorten it up until it chambers OK. This way I have an idea of how that particular bullet fits the chamber; OAL to clear rifling. With some bullets I'll have to go deeper than "book data", but usually thats just a few thousandths.

 

[James2]

As noted all 124 gr bullets are not the same length.
My first manual never gave any lengths for the loads. It was my plan to just make them the same length as factory rounds of the same shape bullet. I kept one around for comparison purposes. I figured factory rounds are set up to work in most guns of that caliber, so it will likely work in mine, and such was the case. Even then I just put them side by side and looked at them. Never had any calipers. As long as they will work in your gun and you start at the low end of the load data and work up you will be fine. You will want to verify that they will work in the magazine and also chamber. Once you get to shooting some, you may want to play with the seating depth for accuracy reasons. This is probably more useful in rifles than handguns. Most pistol bullets do not have a crimping ring, but bullets designed for revolvers often do. In that case crimp in the ring and that sets the depth of the bullet and over all length.

 

[BYJO4]

I think the Lyman manual gives you more data on cast bullets than other manuals do. I will find the style and weight bullet that I'm going to load in their manual and start with their basic load data and work up if need be. I can also make small changes to length if I have feeding problems.

 

[Jim Watson]

Well, yes and no.
There are two main makers of mass production bullet casting equipment, Magma and Ballisticast. More Magmas from what I have seen. So there are a lot of 125 gr 9mms of the same type and if you are SURE your length is based on one of those, it is something to work with.

But if you get bullets out of a Ballisticast machine, or somebody using other moulds, all bets are off. You must go by what fits the magazine, what fits the chamber, and what feeds from magazine to chamber. That is what those low "starting loads" are for.

 

[johnandersonoutdoors]

Thank you everybody. I appreciate the input.

My plan at this point is to work up a load for my 9mm with 124 grain lead from Dardas, put Accurate #5 behind it and then once everything is tweaked I am gonna keep it simple and just stick with the same bullets and begin loading "bulk".

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Very wise. I generally stick to one load for most handguns. For example, for .454 ACP I like a 230 grain cast bullet and 4.5 grains of Bullseye.

 

[SSN Vet]

Lee's Modern Reloading Manual is a compilation of load data from other sources.... most apparently comes from the powder manufacturers themselves (and is usually available for free online, though it is quite convenient to have it all compiled and integrated together). So Lee provides tables for generic bullet types/weights and lists all the powders that have load data published for that weight bullet.

As noted, the actual bullet geometry will vary. Also, note that Lee doesn't say anything about what primer was used.

When you buy reloading manual published by a bullet manufacturer, you will get data for every bullet that company makes, with a decent (though not exaustive) variety of powders. This load data will be for that exact bullet, primer, powder and charge.

And while this load data is much more specific, your actual performance will vary, as you are most likely not shooting that load from the exact same barrel and chamber as used for the load testing.

So yes, there's a lot of benefit in building a small library of manuals.

 

[LiveLife]

Dardas 124 grain lead 9mm bullets ... are all 124 grain lead bullets the same length no matter who makes them?

what if a bullet maker has 124 grain leads bullets that are longer? Seated to the same overall length, a longer bullet will be deeper in the case than a shorter 124 grain bullet seated to the same overall length.

Depending on the bullet nose profile (ogive) and the length of the bearing surface of the bullet base (part of the bullet that rides the rifling), you may need to use different OAL for reliable feeding/chambering from the magazine.

Keep in mind that using OALs from published load data won't ensure the finished rounds will work with your pistol/barrel as test barrel fixtures (and not actual pistols) are often used to determine the average max chamber pressures. Since pistols/barrels vary for different makes/models, when a new bullet is used (even for the same bullet weight), each reloader must determine the OAL that will work with the pistol/barrel.

Dardas 124/125 gr 9mm bullets come in two different nose profiles. The 124 gr Dardas bullet would be similar to the Missouri RN bullet (third from right) in comparison to the 125 gr Dardas bullet (second bullet from the right) which has more traditional pointed nose and stepped bearing surface and I use 1.125"-1.135" OAL with this type of bullet nose. With the shorter and more rounder nose 124 gr Dardas bullet that provides longer bearing surface, I use 1.080"-1.100" OAL. IMO, this newer nose profile allows deeper seating of the bullet base in the case neck for more consistent chamber pressures and longer bearing surface to ride the rifling to stabilize the bullet for greater accuracy.

If you are using the shorter, more rounder RN like the Missouri RN bullet, using the more typical 1.125"-1.135" OAL will cause the bearing surface of the bullet to hit the start of rifling when chambered or prevent the finished rounds from fully chambering (see OAL comparison picture below with white arrows marking bearing surfaces that will hit the start of rifling). Use the barrel drop test to determine the Max OAL that won't hit the rifling and test feed/chamber from the magazine to determine the Ideal/working OAL that will work with your pistol/barrel/magazine - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=8476961#post8476961

Once you determined the Ideal/working OAL that works with your pistol/barrel/magazine, then you can proceed and conduct a full powder workup from published start-to-max charges to determine loads that will reliably cycle the slide and produce accurate shot groups. If the published load data only shows max charge, use 10% reduction as your start charge.

 

[RandyP]

As you will note from the pics posted, even something as supposedly simply as Round Nose RN, has no shape 'standard'. So exactly where on the surface of the bullet the seating die makes contact could be different and then we get out our calipers and measure from the end point tip of the bullet anyway.

I have chosen a path that keeps me happy, namely I load only up to the mid point in the load tables, using a very forgiving powder -Win 231/HP-38 - and an OAL that works across all my handguns in that caliber, never exceeding the published OALs.

I am making plinking ammo and the paper targets don't seem to mind if I don't push to the max limits.

 

[Lost Sheep]

Welcome and thanks.

Absolutely right. Your (original post) thinking and all replies.

So, I have only to make this suggestion:

Load a handful of cartridges with (each of) your chosen bullet(s) and cycle them through your action manually to ensure proper feeding and chambering. (Too long OR too short can be problematic.) Then measure their lengths to determine if any of the bullets are set deeper because of the cycling. Repeat the cycling and measuring as many times as you feel necessary.

Fix the loading process and crimping on any bullet shapes that showed setback, or eliminate those bullet/case combinations from future consideration.

Fire the rest of the cartridges, preserving the brass for examination. Fire over a chronograph if you have access to one.

Examine the brass, taking note of signs of pressure. There is a long list including primer flattening, split case mouths, bulged brass, sticky extraction, etc. None of the signs are definitive by itself/themselves, but establish a pattern and indicate the need for more investigation.

Find a list here. Note that not all signs are applicable to your handgun. Some apply only to bottlenecked cases and bolt-action or other action types. Some apply to all action and cartridge types.
http://www.shootersforum.com/handloading-procedures-practices/58763-pressure-signs.html

Good luck. Thanks for asking your excellent question and welcome to the forum and to reloading.

Lost Sheep

 

[johnandersonoutdoors]

Thanks again everyone. The amount of helpful information is ridiculous

Lots of great points of interest for me to digest.

Another basic question comes to mind. Should I have slugged my m&p9 barrel before ordering .356" diameter?

 

[Clark]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

When I started handloading ~ 13 years ago, I immediately tried to find the limits of 9mm. I got as many different bullet weights and powders and tried to work up to the point of blowing up the gun. I produced a lot of spread sheets full of data. I was doing everything at 1.169" OAL if possible.

My father, the chief engineer over 150 guys and owner of dozens of gun patents, told me I was crazy. But when I showed him the data I had collected, he changed his tune.

Then years later, the Quickload software program was released.
Oi, does that ever save time.
It is very fussy about how long is the bullet and how deep is the bullet seated. It estimates pressure and velocity.

I bought another copy of Quickload and put it on my brother's computer 3 weeks ago.
He has never turned it on when I was not standing there telling him to do it.
Some people are just not curious about the possibilities of reloading.

 

[Lost Sheep]

Go for it.

Thanks again everyone. The amount of helpful information is ridiculous

Lots of great points of interest for me to digest.

Another basic question comes to mind. Should I have slugged my m&p9 barrel before ordering .356" diameter?

It could not hurt.

More information is always better. But don't obsess about it. There are so many 9mm barrels and so many 9mm slugs out there that they have been pretty well managed by the manufacturers. Kind of like a climax ecosystem. All the components have been well "worn in" like lapping mating parts, but over a century from worldwide manufacturers instead of individual pieces in a single assembly.

If it reassures you to have your unique barrel "blueprinted", go for it. It will be reassuring, I guarantee it.

To ease your concern, lead bullets swage down to barrel dimensions very easily. That's just what they do. It is one of lead bullets' great virtues and they are designed to do that so you get a good bullet-to-bore airtight seal.

Lost Sheep.