New York City sues 12 more out-of-state gun dealers

[Desertdog]

New York City sues 12 more out-of-state gun dealers
http://today.reuters.com/news/artic...ORK.xml&WTmodLoc=USNewsHome_C2_domesticNews-8



NEW YORK (Reuters) - New York City sued 12 more out-of-state gun dealers in federal court on Thursday for what officials called a pattern of illegally selling guns that end up being used for crimes in the city.

The dealers come from Georgia, Ohio, Pennsylvania, South Carolina and Virginia -- the same states that were home to 15 dealers sued by the city in May.

More than 300 New Yorkers were killed by illegal guns last year, with nearly all of the guns coming from out of state, said Mayor Michael Bloomberg, who has made the campaign against illegal guns a centerpiece of his second term in office.

Some 300 guns used in New York City crimes were traced to the 12 dealers named in Thursday's suit, and nearly 20 came from one store in Toccoa, Georgia, he said.

"This is about law enforcement, plain and simple, and it's about keeping guns out of the hands of criminals," Bloomberg said. "It's like one percent of the dealers that are really the bad guys."

Of the 15 dealers sued in May, six have settled with the city and will have their operations overseen by a court-appointed special master.

The lawsuits aim to stop dealers from allowing "straw purchases," in which one person shops for a gun and then has someone else fill out the required federal forms to pass a background check.

Straw purchasers from New York typically travel out of state by bus, buy five or 10 guns, return to New York and then sell them for twice or three times what they paid, Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said.

New York caught some dealers by hiring undercover private detectives with hidden cameras to carry out straw purchases.

Bloomberg's campaign in May came as he was speaking out on other national issues such as immigration and stem cell research, fueling speculation he might consider running for president in 2008 as an independent.

Bloomberg, a longtime Democrat who became a Republican before running for mayor in 2001, has said he won't run.

 

[Hoppy590]

better watch they dont step on the BATFE's toes again

 

[Mr. James]

Are not these free-lance crime fighters committing multiple federal felonies every time they stage one of their bogus "straw" purchases in a gun store? Are they not falsifying answers (translation: lying, committing perjury) each and every time they fill out a 4473?

Doesn't Bloomberg have some deep fat fryers to persecute?

So many causes, Michael, so little time.

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent busybodies. The robber barons' cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”

- C. S. Lewis

 

[GTSteve03]

How's the counter-suit from Adventure Outdoors (an excellent, upstanding gunshop here in the Atlanta-metro area) against Bloomberg, et al going?

I'd like to see some reporting on that but since it would actually show what Bloomberg is doing is illegal, I bet it will be a cold day before then...

 

[crunker]

A gun dealer who lets people get away with straw-purchases deserves to be sued as he didn't follow the law.

The other ones are okay though.

 

[Standing Wolf]

"This is about law enforcement, plain and simple, and it's about keeping guns out of the hands of criminals," Bloomberg said.

An intelligent mayor would advocate keeping criminals off the streets.

 

[Blackfork]

Bloomberg

Blomberg doesn't deserve the power to sue anyone out of state. He isn't a governor, nor a state legislator, nor a congressman, nor a Fed. He's a MAYOR.

This is real trouble. He's going to keep pushing this kind of stuff.

 

[Waitone]

He will keep it up until someone shoves back. The longer he gets away with it the more likely some other idiot mayor will pull the same stunt. What the good mayor is doing is merely the next evolutionary step in litigation regulation against the gun industry.

Of the 15 dealers sued in May, six have settled with the city and will have their operations overseen by a court-appointed special master.

Why does that phrase irritate me?

 

[fedlaw]

He will keep it up until someone shoves back.

Over Thanksgiving I was in a gun shop in Greenville, SC. The proprietor told me one of the owners Bloomberg sued is a friend of his. He also said the gun shop owner is very wealthy and has retained a former US Senator to represent him. Perhaps this will be the guy to shove back.

 

[Frog48]

As long as the dealer isnt participating in a straw purchase knowingly, and the buyer clears the 4473/background check, I dont see what legal basis there is in which to sue the dealer? Hopefully a judge will find the lawsuits ridiculous and throw them out.

 

[Waitone]

. . . I dont see what legal basis there is in which to sue the dealer?

Missed the point. Civil litigation has nothing to do with right and wrong. The issue here is the defendant has to start spending money from the get-go. Whether or not he did anything wrong is beside the point. The whole point is to get the victim to spend money which is in limited supply in most cases. This is an example of judicial tyranny at its finest.

 

[JimmyN]

Well he can't control the crime in his city because he has rendered the citizens defenseless against it, and he can't afford enough police for the 1 to 1 ratio needed to turn things around, so he just blames someone else for the problem. He's a politican, not a leader. And he'll keep going on his witchhunt seeking that business somewhere in another state that is responsible for his spiraling crime rate. I wonder if most of the citizens of NYC know that they are funding his "sting" operations in other states, over just a few hundred guns. Notice they didn't mention how many million guns are already in NYC. 300 illegal gun deaths in a city of 8.2 million. I would bet more than that drowned in their bathtubs. NYC would save a lot of money, and likely save more lives, if they just outlawed bathtub stoppers. Do it for the children if nothing else.

From what I've been reading most of the shops don't fight it, he has the NYC taxpayers money behind him, and the shops wouldn't be able to afford the legal fees. So they agree, and he has control over them, or they close down. It's not about gun sales and keeping them out of NYC, or prosecuting anyone for a crime. The stores can remain in operation and nobody goes to jail, it's just about Bloomberg flexing his power to control and shut down businesses in other states. Like I said, IMO he's just a politician, not a statesman or a leader.

 

[lionken07]

Bloomberg just don't get it. BG can still buy guns if they try (and have $$) hard enough. With or without other state's help. This is not about keeping NYC safer. This is about him trying to control other states.

Another reason why so MANY of us left the big apple.

NYC should not be considered part of the US

 

[ChiefThunderstick]

Why don't all the gun shops combine efforts to quell any further attempts to disrupt their business. If they would all unite and say no to the bully in NY, then maybe he'll back off. Bloomberg is a multi-billionaire. If a lawsuit was directed at him personally, there's a lot of mulah that can be awarded to the gun shop owners. It could be donated to the NRA to further the shooting sports, and used to promote their many programs, such as 4H teaching young shooters gun safety and marksmanship. They could show that they don't want any money for themselves and honorably donate any funds gained by the suit.

 

[ConstitutionCowboy]

"This is about law enforcement, plain and simple, and it's about keeping guns out of the hands of criminals," Bloomberg said.

Since when is it the job of gun dealers to enforce the law? They are not sworn and compensated officers of the law. They can be charged with a crime if they slip up. Do BATFE agents get charged with a crime when a criminal slips through their fingers? Does that sound fair? It's not even constitutional as far as I can see. (This sounds too much like involuntary servitude to me...)

If the BATFE wants to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, let them stand at the counter and do the background checks. Let them obtain a warrant each and every time, too. See how convoluted it gets when people are forced to comply with unconstitutional law? See how convoluted it gets when law enforcement passes the buck?

Woody

How many times must people get bit in the (insert appropriate anatomical region) before they figure out that infringing upon rights sets the stage for the detrimental acts those rights were there to deter? B.E.Wood

 

[Redneck with a 40]

I think mayor bloomberg has found a dangerous loophole in the interstate commerce in arms act. While he cannot sue the gun manufacturers, there is nothing to stop him from suing gun dealers, he know's this, he's not stupid, he's going to milk it until someone stops him legally or judicially.

 

[thexrayboy]

Waitone has it dead to rights on this one. This is not about right and wrong, legal or illegal. If it was the actions of the "investigators" (sic) for NYC would likely be behind bars already. This is about using endless amounts of a renewable resource, the tax dollars of New York, to file countless harrassment suits in an effort to obtain an outcome that cannot be obtained legally. For the most part the Feds don't care what happens in these cases as long as New York doesn't make problems for the Feds or make them look bad. Civil law is basically a contest to see who has the biggest pair and the deepest pockets. When a citizen goes up against a city, county etc. the cards or so badly stacked at the outset that only miracles give justice a chance. It's a simple matter of money. When you can tap the taxpayers pockets you have an endless supply. No one else can say that.

 

[EttenBoom]

I think mayor bloomberg has found a dangerous loophole in the interstate commerce in arms act. While he cannot sue the gun manufacturers, there is nothing to stop him from suing gun dealers, he know's this, he's not stupid, he's going to milk it until someone stops him legally or judicially

Any dealers that really are engaging in illegal straw purchases should be tried in a criminal court. I don't see where a civil case is relevant.

What I would like to know is where is the NRA, GOA, and other pro-gun groups in all this? I would like to see a legal fund set up to help these dealers defend themselves. How many dealers out there have the resources, even if combined, to sustain a countersuit against NYC, or even Bloomberg as an individual.

What about individual gun owners, what are we willing to do to help?

 

[tinygnat219]

Bloomie isn't doing anything in criminal court. He has no jurisdiction, that's the BATFE's bailiwick and jurisdiction. Notice there have not been any criminal charges filed. What IS happening, is that Bloomie is suing in CIVIL court, where anyone can sue anybody for anything. What he's doing is forcing gun stores to agree to have ALL their purchases monitored and videotaped for a period of 3 years. This will be overseen by a specially appointed person (ie. Bloomie hack). Any violation of the "agreement" will result in a substantial fine and a reset of the agreement. The gunstore owners will also have to hand over the purchase information to the City of New York.
This is happening here in VA, and we are fighting it.
What I find interesting is that he is doing this without the NY City Police Dept, the NY City State Police, the BATF, or VA State Police.
The BATF has demanded the Videotape evidence and it has not been provided, and the private investigatory firm hired to do the straw purchases has some answering to do as well since it's a felony to do a straw purchase.
This should be interesting to watch, hopefully Bloomberg gets his ass handed to him with some serious jailtime associated with it.

TJ

 

[Manedwolf]

I would personally love to see Bloomberg's goons get into a fight with the BATFE goons about this.

I'd sit back with popcorn.

 

[Mr. James]

The Virginia Citizen's Defense League has established a Gun Dealer Legal Defense Fund to help out dealers targeted by the Racketeering-Influenced and Corrupt Organization otherwise known as the City of New York.

Details and a PayPal link are here: www.vcdl.org (scroll down past the license plate)

Speaking of RICO, private citizens can bring RICO Act civil suits, can they not? I seem to recall the National Organization of Women brought a long-running RICO suit against pro-life protester, Joe Scheidler, prompting him to refer to his organization somewhat puckishly as "Racketeers For Life."

The City and the Office of the Mayor might be prime targets for just such a suit.

 

[XDKingslayer]

You all are saying that Bloomberg doesn't get it, but it's you guys that clearly don't get it.

Bloomberg is doing the same thing the RIAA and MPAA did against file sharing programs. File sharing programs are being sued into non-existance because, even though there are legitimate uses for them, people are using them to "illegally" share movies and songs. They are holding the makers of the software accountable for what their users do with it. Bloombergs lawsuits are paralleling these because he has seen that they work and judges are supporting it.

These lawsuits are going to fly. You're right, someone with a lot of money and a lot of influence had better push back because this is going to be the tactic that halts the gun industry. BE AFRAID. For now it's the dealers, but once there is case law you know he will go after the gun makers next.

 

[Bubbles]

The BATF has demanded the Videotape evidence and it has not been provided...

Ummmmmmm... could that be because there is none, these "straw purchases" never took place, and Bloomie simply picked a dozen random gun dealers to smack with a lawsuit?

 

[Desertdog]

The BATF has demanded the Videotape evidence and it has not been provided...

IF it goes to trial without the video tape, where is their case? Anybody can testify that __________happened, even if it didn't. Hopefully the dealers have store surveillance video that will tell they didn't.

Damn, it horrible that store owers may have to install surveillance camers to protect their selves against some government idiot.

If there were straw purchases made to get a case, may there be prison sentences given to the straw buyers, their bosses, and whoever hired them to make the straw purchases, ie. Mayor Bloomberg.

 

[Henry Bowman]

...may there be prison sentences given to the straw buyers, their bosses, and whoever hired them to make the straw purchases, ie. Mayor Bloomberg.

And may there be peace on Earth. Want to bet which will happen first.