Newbie gun question. I don't have a clue what it is...
- Thread starter Mr.Vette
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Smith357
Member
You could post them here. We all like a good game of identify that gun.
You can upload the pics to ImageShack, if that helps.
Mannlicher
Member
wow, it took me three years to learn how to take and post pics!!
Good pics too vette, but other than a guess that its European, maybe from Belgium, I really don't have a clue.
Good pics too vette, but other than a guess that its European, maybe from Belgium, I really don't have a clue.
Mr. Vette.
Try this link and this thread with pics and response.
hillbilly
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=151127&highlight=French
Try this link and this thread with pics and response.
hillbilly
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=151127&highlight=French
Jagermeister
Moderator In Memoriam
Your pistol is a Pockett Bulldog Model, pobably British, however, these were make in a lot of countires. If you could describe the the markings, even photos we may be able to identify the Country of origin.
JM
JM
It does have a crown N nitro proof mark, implying Suhl, (East) Germany.
(https://store.bluebookinc.com/Info/PDF/Firearm/Proofmarks.pdf)
(https://store.bluebookinc.com/Info/PDF/Firearm/Proofmarks.pdf)
Attachments
Here's a picture which appeaars to be the very revolver you have. Not much info tho. This one is chambered for 6.35 (.25 ACP) and is listed as for the Browning cartridge. As mentioned above, I also believe it to be Belgian manufacture. This is from an old catalogue labeled "Guns of the World 1911" so the closest I can date it is to be close to that date. If this photo doesn't come thru I will try again. I'm not too sharp on that aspect yet.
All --
Thanks for the suggestions and links.
Jondar - I've looked at your link from the catalog, and my gun is very similar with only minor variations. The barrel on my gun is not fluted, like the one in the photo, also the pattern on the grip is slightly different, the trigger has a slightly different shape and the curve on the back of the gun is more squared off on mine. Could these differences simply be due to slight design changes in the same model gun over time?
I've also looked at the proof mark, and it does appear to match exactly the one in the document supplied by hksw. This mark, by the way, appears in 3 different places on the gun: on the barrel, on the vertical piece between the barrel and the chamber, and on the chamber itself (as shown in the pic).
Here's my question, though... jondar's link is to a catalog showing guns from 1911, possibly of Belgian manufacture. However, the proof mark document states that the N with the crown above it was used in Germany, but after 1951. The proof mark document also talks about some guns having 2 proof marks, one from the country of manufacture, and one from the country of export, if the gun was exported as a military acquisition. Is it possible that the gun was manufactured very early in the century in Belgium (but had no proof mark at time of manufacture), and then was later exported to Germany, where it was marked with the German proof mark? (I know nothing about proof marks, their purpose, how they work, etc.).
Any suggestions (speculations?) greatly appreciated.
--Mr. Vette
Thanks for the suggestions and links.
Jondar - I've looked at your link from the catalog, and my gun is very similar with only minor variations. The barrel on my gun is not fluted, like the one in the photo, also the pattern on the grip is slightly different, the trigger has a slightly different shape and the curve on the back of the gun is more squared off on mine. Could these differences simply be due to slight design changes in the same model gun over time?
I've also looked at the proof mark, and it does appear to match exactly the one in the document supplied by hksw. This mark, by the way, appears in 3 different places on the gun: on the barrel, on the vertical piece between the barrel and the chamber, and on the chamber itself (as shown in the pic).
Here's my question, though... jondar's link is to a catalog showing guns from 1911, possibly of Belgian manufacture. However, the proof mark document states that the N with the crown above it was used in Germany, but after 1951. The proof mark document also talks about some guns having 2 proof marks, one from the country of manufacture, and one from the country of export, if the gun was exported as a military acquisition. Is it possible that the gun was manufactured very early in the century in Belgium (but had no proof mark at time of manufacture), and then was later exported to Germany, where it was marked with the German proof mark? (I know nothing about proof marks, their purpose, how they work, etc.).
Any suggestions (speculations?) greatly appreciated.
--Mr. Vette
Mr. Vette - As you can tell from my posting I'm certainly not an authority on these types of arms. The illustration I posted was with many others, including the Velo Dog. It is typical of the type of small pocket arms which were manufactured during the period 1910 thru I think the 1930's. I stand to be corrected but don't believe this gun was manufactured as late as the 1950's. As with so many other Belgian small arms there are sometimes no makers names on them so info is lacking. The name of my catalog is not "Guns of the World - 1911" as I stated but "Arms of the World - 1911" so my short term memory is going. What else is new? By the way, did you determine for sure the caliber of your revolver? Jon
Jondar, you have been a great help! Marking on the gun is "CAL 765" with the 65 in small super script numbers.
I have found another marking on the gun, on the vertical piece behind the barrel. I initially thought this was a scratch or dent in the metal, but it can be clearly seen in my post with the 4 pics in this thread, in the 2nd photo from the top. The marking vaguely looks like a teardrop shape, but on closer inspection it appears to be an oval with a tiny crown on top of it. I have checked the proof mark document, and this does indeed appear to be a Belgian proof mark.
But wait, there's more! I removed the barrel and there are 5 more markings, one in between each chamber. One of the markings is the oval with the crown on top of it (at about the 1:00 position in the photo below). Another marking appears to be a star, which according to the proof mark document is French. However, the star on my gun appears to have a letter P inside it, while the mark in the document is just a simple star with no letters. Also, there is a plain oval with something (too small to tell what) inside. The only marking in the document showing an oval outline with nothing else around it is French. (hmmm...). Here is a photo:
Now I'm really confused!!
Mr. Vette
I have found another marking on the gun, on the vertical piece behind the barrel. I initially thought this was a scratch or dent in the metal, but it can be clearly seen in my post with the 4 pics in this thread, in the 2nd photo from the top. The marking vaguely looks like a teardrop shape, but on closer inspection it appears to be an oval with a tiny crown on top of it. I have checked the proof mark document, and this does indeed appear to be a Belgian proof mark.
But wait, there's more! I removed the barrel and there are 5 more markings, one in between each chamber. One of the markings is the oval with the crown on top of it (at about the 1:00 position in the photo below). Another marking appears to be a star, which according to the proof mark document is French. However, the star on my gun appears to have a letter P inside it, while the mark in the document is just a simple star with no letters. Also, there is a plain oval with something (too small to tell what) inside. The only marking in the document showing an oval outline with nothing else around it is French. (hmmm...). Here is a photo:
Now I'm really confused!!
Mr. Vette
rustymaggot
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whatever it is, its cute.
xring44
Member
Don't rush into restoration, I have no idea of the guns value as it is now, but seldom will refinishing one increase its value. Besides it has a certain amount of charm as it is.
Lo.Com.Denom
Member
Nngh!!... Mystery... Gun... Can't... Resist!!
I dug through A.B. Zhuk's encyclopedia (usually a very fine source, if you have a mystery gun), and I found a pretty precise match -- visually speaking. A "Brong-Grand" by "Crucelegui Hermanos" of Eibar -- Spanish, in other words. It's number 1144 on page 154 of the newer edition, if anyone has a copy and cares to take a look.
The "palm frond" looking carving at the top of the grip plates, and the rear site being cast into the frame in that shape and position give the game away. No idea what the proof-marks are all about, but I know that in Britain it is, and was, standard practice to re-proof any guns coming into the country to Brit standards (Spanish guns of the early 20th century often failed this test, BTW). Perhaps France and Germany had a similar practice, accounting for the varied proofmarks?
Oh, and the "CAL 765" means that it's chambered for .32ACP, in case you were wondering. "7.65mm" is the European designation for .32ACP.
Your type of gun is a sub-class of pocket revolvers from the "Puppy" or "Bulldog" class. At the time they were made, small, blowback semi-autos were quite fashionable, but were often accused of being unreliable, so some enterprising spark decided to make cheap revolvers which superficially aped them. That's why they look so squarish, chamber semi-auto rounds (like .32ACP and .25ACP) and often have pointless safety catches. Revolvers with these features were made in Belgium, Germany, Italy and Spain (undoubtably elsewhere, too). You will find some "Velo-dog" class revolvers also sporting these features, but "Velo-dogs" should (strictly speaking) be chambered in 5.5mm Velo-dog only. A good deal of overlap occurs in these classes, however and you can find countless hybrids and variations.
Got all that? Good. I'll be setting a test at the end of the lesson...
I dug through A.B. Zhuk's encyclopedia (usually a very fine source, if you have a mystery gun), and I found a pretty precise match -- visually speaking. A "Brong-Grand" by "Crucelegui Hermanos" of Eibar -- Spanish, in other words. It's number 1144 on page 154 of the newer edition, if anyone has a copy and cares to take a look.
The "palm frond" looking carving at the top of the grip plates, and the rear site being cast into the frame in that shape and position give the game away. No idea what the proof-marks are all about, but I know that in Britain it is, and was, standard practice to re-proof any guns coming into the country to Brit standards (Spanish guns of the early 20th century often failed this test, BTW). Perhaps France and Germany had a similar practice, accounting for the varied proofmarks?
Oh, and the "CAL 765" means that it's chambered for .32ACP, in case you were wondering. "7.65mm" is the European designation for .32ACP.
Your type of gun is a sub-class of pocket revolvers from the "Puppy" or "Bulldog" class. At the time they were made, small, blowback semi-autos were quite fashionable, but were often accused of being unreliable, so some enterprising spark decided to make cheap revolvers which superficially aped them. That's why they look so squarish, chamber semi-auto rounds (like .32ACP and .25ACP) and often have pointless safety catches. Revolvers with these features were made in Belgium, Germany, Italy and Spain (undoubtably elsewhere, too). You will find some "Velo-dog" class revolvers also sporting these features, but "Velo-dogs" should (strictly speaking) be chambered in 5.5mm Velo-dog only. A good deal of overlap occurs in these classes, however and you can find countless hybrids and variations.
Got all that? Good. I'll be setting a test at the end of the lesson...
Thank you very much!!!! I don't think I am ready for the test yet. Any mention on the years produced? I Have a request. Is there anyway to snap a photo of the book that you found it in. I realize that you have spent a good amount of time on this (as well as all who replied). I realize the pistol is not worth much to anyone but me, quite honestly thats OK... Thanks all. MR.Vette
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Lo.Com.Denom
Member
I'm a sucker for obscure firearms...
Zhuk doesn't mention much about these gun to be honest, but "Pistols of the World" says that Crucelegui manufactured large numbers of basically the same design between 1900 and 1925, under a variety of trade-names. They can be found "all over the Iberian penisula", apparently.
Here's a copyright-baiting fuzzy photo of the drawing, anyway -- see what you think. You can probably find a copy of Zhuk's "Illustrated Encyclopedia of Handguns" on Amazon.
Zhuk doesn't mention much about these gun to be honest, but "Pistols of the World" says that Crucelegui manufactured large numbers of basically the same design between 1900 and 1925, under a variety of trade-names. They can be found "all over the Iberian penisula", apparently.
Here's a copyright-baiting fuzzy photo of the drawing, anyway -- see what you think. You can probably find a copy of Zhuk's "Illustrated Encyclopedia of Handguns" on Amazon.
Attachments
Well, the "Crown N" proof makes nonsense out of the Belgian and Spanish theories; it was the standard German proof from the 1800's up to 1 April 1940 when it was replaced by the "[Nazi] Eagle N".
However, similar guns were made in Belgium and Spain as well as Germany and sold all over Europe. (None, AFAIK, were made in England or the U.S., though they were sold in both countries.) Most had no maker's markings and fired either 7.65mm Browning (.32 ACP) or 6.35mm Browning (.25 ACP). Larger versions were made for the various Nagant cartridges. Similar guns were made for the 5.6mm Velodog, and sometimes the name "Velodog revolvers" is given to the whole group, though it actually applies only to revolvers in that caliber.
The ALFA catalog of 1911 has 20 pages of similar guns, each a bit different. The "fan" design on the grips was quite common and appears on some guns that are otherwise different and do not seem to be from the same maker.
The gun has little value in the U.S., although it is interesting as a novelty. It seems to be in fairly good shape and I think any attempt to "restore" it would decrease the value, not increase it.
Jim
However, similar guns were made in Belgium and Spain as well as Germany and sold all over Europe. (None, AFAIK, were made in England or the U.S., though they were sold in both countries.) Most had no maker's markings and fired either 7.65mm Browning (.32 ACP) or 6.35mm Browning (.25 ACP). Larger versions were made for the various Nagant cartridges. Similar guns were made for the 5.6mm Velodog, and sometimes the name "Velodog revolvers" is given to the whole group, though it actually applies only to revolvers in that caliber.
The ALFA catalog of 1911 has 20 pages of similar guns, each a bit different. The "fan" design on the grips was quite common and appears on some guns that are otherwise different and do not seem to be from the same maker.
The gun has little value in the U.S., although it is interesting as a novelty. It seems to be in fairly good shape and I think any attempt to "restore" it would decrease the value, not increase it.
Jim
Please no one take offense. However as seen in the picture one of the grips is in need of repair. This gun has not been fired in years. I am or would not be restoring this for any kind of monetary value. As this was in my grandfathers collection it is important to me to find some place to restore it and make sure it is in proper working order. It probably would be easier to replace I am sure. However this may be the direction I will go, if there is someone willing to take on the task. Thanks once again for any leads or help.
-MR.VETTE -
-MR.VETTE -
Lo.Com.Denom
Member
First, let me start by saying that Jim Keenan truely knows his stuff. He has probably forgotten more about firearms than most of us will ever know. However...
I can't agree that the proof-mark has any bearing on this guns place of origin.
Quoting from page 138 of Zhuk, on the difficulties in establishing country of origin:
"...It can also be difficult to establish country of origin. Comparatively few of the cheapest grades of commercially-available revolvers bore makers' marks, though the experienced student can sometimes deduce the manufacturer from details of construction or machining techniques. The appearance of proof marks -- which were not always demanded in law -- is not necessararily an accurate indicator. The recognition of foreign proof marks varied by country, which meant, for example, that guns made in Spain (where there was no mandatory proof prior to 1925) could not be sold in Britain until they had passed through the proof houses in London or Birmingham."
...Which was what I was driving at here:
I agree that the "fan" grip plates are perhaps a poor indicator, but looking through the many illustrations, 9 times out of 10, that pattern seems to be on a product from Eibar. Indeed, none of the features on the mystery gun are unique, but having them all together is what points me to Crucelegui.
But as I've said, I've learnt a lot more from Jim than he has from me.
I can't agree that the proof-mark has any bearing on this guns place of origin.
Quoting from page 138 of Zhuk, on the difficulties in establishing country of origin:
"...It can also be difficult to establish country of origin. Comparatively few of the cheapest grades of commercially-available revolvers bore makers' marks, though the experienced student can sometimes deduce the manufacturer from details of construction or machining techniques. The appearance of proof marks -- which were not always demanded in law -- is not necessararily an accurate indicator. The recognition of foreign proof marks varied by country, which meant, for example, that guns made in Spain (where there was no mandatory proof prior to 1925) could not be sold in Britain until they had passed through the proof houses in London or Birmingham."
...Which was what I was driving at here:
Lo.Com.Denom said:
I agree that the "fan" grip plates are perhaps a poor indicator, but looking through the many illustrations, 9 times out of 10, that pattern seems to be on a product from Eibar. Indeed, none of the features on the mystery gun are unique, but having them all together is what points me to Crucelegui.
But as I've said, I've learnt a lot more from Jim than he has from me.
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