According to my manuals, the COL listed is 1.100 which i had planned to load, but after doing my plunk test at 1.197 i was thinking they are way too far apart for that to be a good starting point. Ive read that using the COL listed in a manual is what they used in some machine thats similar to a barrel but not my barrel. To find the sweet spot for me would be to use my max allowable COL.. Again im new, so trying to digest all info from everywhere is tough
Newbie question on 9mm reloads
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Rock185
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Lem, Since you indicate you're new to reloading, I'd suggest going with the basics as to overall lengths, and everything else for that matter. Once you gain more experience, and develop a feel for how this or that change might affect your reloads, then you might choose to experiment more. I've used a chronograph regularly for many years and would not be without one, but I realize many could care less about actual velocities, extreme spreads,etc. in their particular gun. I've found that actual velocities may differ significantly from what a reloading manual, or manufactuer's published velocities, might indicate.
Within my humble experience, quality ammunition, handloaded or factory, is capable of hitting that sweet spot as to accuracy in an accurate semi-auto pistol without the necessity of loading to extra long lengths, etc.....ymmv
Within my humble experience, quality ammunition, handloaded or factory, is capable of hitting that sweet spot as to accuracy in an accurate semi-auto pistol without the necessity of loading to extra long lengths, etc.....ymmv
sparkyv
Member
You are good. I load 115 grain FMJs a little longer than yours, and it even works reliably with my CZ which has the tightest headspace of al my 9mms.
Friend, for your Hornady bullets at least, you are overthinking this. Follow the load data in your Hornady manual for your Hornady bullet. COL and start/max loads are already determined. Use them. You have already verified the recommend COL will chamber in your gun. Start low and make sure the charge is sufficient to cycle the slide. If desired increase your charge by increments of .2gr at most, stop when you are satisfied with how they shoot. Recommend you stop short of the max load; if you do load max you should hand weigh each one. Having a safe round that goes bang and cycles the gun is a success when you are a beginner. If you reasonably duplicate factory ammunition consider your success complete. After gaining experience with your Hornady bullets you may want to buy more and save your Berry’s until later for when you get load data for them and have more experience. FMJ are more forgiving than plated when you are starting out as well.
Enjoy!
gifbohane
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Strainer has it nailed.
Hornady manual calls for 4.1 grains to max load of 4.7 grains. Hornady used a COL of 1.100 in their tests. I use a chrono to test my loads. I tried most of these but never exceeded 4.5 grains as FPS got too high at 4.5. Usually go with 4.3 grains for my guns.
Good luck. You get lots of great info on this site
Homerboy
Member
I reload 124 grain bullets with 4.2 grains HP38(awesome by the way. Meters dead on every time. It’s all I use for pistol powder). Hodgdon calls for OAL of 1.15”. Minimum charge of 4.0 and max 4.5 I believe. They all plunked fine in every 9MM I own. At least 7 different guns. Not one fail to feed, fire, or extract.
gifbohane
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Sparky-
You can load a CZ to a COL length of 1.182? I had to drive mine down to 1.120 and I did not have the guts to go to 1.110 which "felt" better on the plonk and twist
sparkyv
Member
Not quite. 1.176" to the lands in my CZ, 115gr RN.
Dudedog
Contributing Member
Here is what I show Hodgdon lists
115 GR. LRN Hodgdon HP-38 .356" 1.100" 4.3 1079 28,400 CUP 4.8 1135 32,000 CUP
115 GR. SPR GDHP Hodgdon HP-38 .355" 1.125" 4.7 1075 25,300 CUP 5.1 1167 28,100 CUP
125 GR. LCN Hodgdon HP-38 .356" 1.125" 3.9 1009 25,700 CUP 4.4 1086 31,200 CUP
125 GR. SIE FMJ Winchester 231 .355" 1.090" 4.4 1009 24,600 CUP 4.8 1088 28,800 CUP
124 GR BERB HBRN Plated Hodgdon HP-38 .356" 1.150" 3.9 920 27,400 PSI 4.4 1037 31,900 PSI
Note the that the charges for the lead bullets are less than jacketed. (Yes GDHP is plated, but thick plated)
What the bottle lists for 115s is a MAX charge.
If it was me with the 115s I would load some at 4.4, 4.6 and 4.8
For your 124s I wouldn't go highter than 4,4
So say maybe some a 4.0 and some at 4.2
I have found my 9mms are happier with OALs that are shorter than the max that will plunk.
With the 124s I would start about 1.14 if that plunks.
I would be tempted to load some of the 124s a bit shorter say maybe 1.12 also and 4.0 and 4.2.
You gun may tell you it likes one charge better and one OAL better or it may not care.
HP38 is a good powder to start with.
I would suggest staying away from MAX loads until you have some experience under your belt.
And then if you want more velocity than the less than MAX HP38 laods are giving you I would suggest a slower burn rate powder,
BE86 or CFE-P would both be good choices.
Have fun, be safe,
If in doubt ask us questions
115 GR. LRN Hodgdon HP-38 .356" 1.100" 4.3 1079 28,400 CUP 4.8 1135 32,000 CUP
115 GR. SPR GDHP Hodgdon HP-38 .355" 1.125" 4.7 1075 25,300 CUP 5.1 1167 28,100 CUP
125 GR. LCN Hodgdon HP-38 .356" 1.125" 3.9 1009 25,700 CUP 4.4 1086 31,200 CUP
125 GR. SIE FMJ Winchester 231 .355" 1.090" 4.4 1009 24,600 CUP 4.8 1088 28,800 CUP
124 GR BERB HBRN Plated Hodgdon HP-38 .356" 1.150" 3.9 920 27,400 PSI 4.4 1037 31,900 PSI
Note the that the charges for the lead bullets are less than jacketed. (Yes GDHP is plated, but thick plated)
What the bottle lists for 115s is a MAX charge.
If it was me with the 115s I would load some at 4.4, 4.6 and 4.8
For your 124s I wouldn't go highter than 4,4
So say maybe some a 4.0 and some at 4.2
I have found my 9mms are happier with OALs that are shorter than the max that will plunk.
With the 124s I would start about 1.14 if that plunks.
I would be tempted to load some of the 124s a bit shorter say maybe 1.12 also and 4.0 and 4.2.
You gun may tell you it likes one charge better and one OAL better or it may not care.
HP38 is a good powder to start with.
I would suggest staying away from MAX loads until you have some experience under your belt.
And then if you want more velocity than the less than MAX HP38 laods are giving you I would suggest a slower burn rate powder,
BE86 or CFE-P would both be good choices.
Have fun, be safe,
If in doubt ask us questions
Here is what I show Hodgdon lists
115 GR. LRN Hodgdon HP-38 .356" 1.100" 4.3 1079 28,400 CUP 4.8 1135 32,000 CUP
115 GR. SPR GDHP Hodgdon HP-38 .355" 1.125" 4.7 1075 25,300 CUP 5.1 1167 28,100 CUP
125 GR. LCN Hodgdon HP-38 .356" 1.125" 3.9 1009 25,700 CUP 4.4 1086 31,200 CUP
125 GR. SIE FMJ Winchester 231 .355" 1.090" 4.4 1009 24,600 CUP 4.8 1088 28,800 CUP
124 GR BERB HBRN Plated Hodgdon HP-38 .356" 1.150" 3.9 920 27,400 PSI 4.4 1037 31,900 PSI
Note the that the charges for the lead bullets are less than jacketed. (Yes GDHP is plated, but thick plated)
What the bottle lists for 115s is a MAX charge.
If it was me with the 115s I would load some at 4.4, 4.6 and 4.8
For your 124s I wouldn't go highter than 4,4
So say maybe some a 4.0 and some at 4.2
I have found my 9mms are happier with OALs that are shorter than the max that will plunk.
With the 124s I would start about 1.14 if that plunks.
I would be tempted to load some of the 124s a bit shorter say maybe 1.12 also and 4.0 and 4.2.
You gun may tell you it likes one charge better and one OAL better or it may not care.
HP38 is a good powder to start with.
I would suggest staying away from MAX loads until you have some experience under your belt.
And then if you want more velocity than the less than MAX HP38 laods are giving you I would suggest a slower burn rate powder,
BE86 or CFE-P would both be good choices.
Have fun, be safe,
If in doubt ask us questions
Thats great info thank you!! So what i did was i loaded only 115gr so far. I loaded 10 4.1gr, 10 4.3gr, and 10 4.5gr with COLs of 1.175, 1.170, 1.165 and 1.160 (120 total). I will try those out and see how it goes. If there are any issues i will lower the COL and keep testing. Does that sound like a good plan?
I agree i am prob overthinking it lol.. im still confused on how to find the best load for your particular pistol.. If i load a COL of 1.150, which most of my factory ammo is, and it shoots, cycles etc than what? Im not just trying to find ammo that shoots im trying to find a load that works best for my gun. I do appreciate all the info and am very thankful for everyones help.
Thats great info thank you.. i will def reference this when i load my 124gr.
Dudedog
Contributing Member
Seems ok but 1.75 and 1.170 are over MAX SAMMI len., but all seem a little long but I don't know that bullet shape.
I would be tempted to reseat the two longest ones to 1.15 and 1.14.
As an example one of my pistols I can go 1.14 with bullet X, but it is happier around 1.09-1.10.
Just remember as OAL goes down, pressure goes up, MAX power charge goes down.
When I am playing with OAl I usually go .1 at a time ex 1.12, 1.13, 1.14,1.15,
then say 1.13 and 1.14 are the best I might try 1.135 (or I might be happy and pick one or the other)
You want the ammo to be as accurate as possible but there is a point can you shoot the difference hand held a X distance.
The 9mm ammo I load is as good as I can shoot, and unless you are shooting from a rest, the last tiny bit for pistol ammo probably does not matter, unless you are shooting Bullseye competitions.
The plunk test is just to determine what will fit, not what you should load. The longest that fits most likely will not be the best....(at least it NEVER has been for me in my various 9mms.)
I find having more of the bullet in the case gives the case a better "grip" on the bullet resulting in lower ES and SD numbers.
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Rock185
Member
Lem, Once you settle on a load that works reliably, does "works best" mean greatest precision/"accuracy"? If so, what I do is shoot seated at the bench over a rest, to remove as much human error as possible. That way, I know what ammunition displays the highest precision in that particular gun. The factory or hand load may be very precise/"accurate" in my gun, so-so or terrible in another shooter's gun, or vice versa. There is just no way to know without testing the particular load in the particular gun.
BTW, I may have missed it, but what gun are you loading for?
BTW, I may have missed it, but what gun are you loading for?
This is how I do it. Keep in mind I've only been loading about 5 years. So if anyone sees vulnerabilities in the following please chime in.
- For each bullet I'll be loading, I find the longest COL that works in my gun. This is defined to be the shorter of 1/ passes the plunk test and 2/ works in the magazine.
- Referring to multiple sources (manuals, websites) decide my starting load. Load up about 10 rounds at each charge level, going in 0.1gr increments. I don't think I've ever tested a load as high as published max load. I go on the assumption there is a high probability I can find a "good load" before I need to go to max published.
- I use a chrono to watch velocities as I test each incremental load. On more than one occasion I've left a range session not firing all my test loads because I thought they were getting too hot. (I have a Walther with a short throat.....so I'm typically loading very short COLs.)
- Lem - I know you said you don't have a chrono. I'd get one ASAP. But if you don't you can look for other pressure signs such as primer flattening.
- I also tend to do anal-retentive things like loading two rounds in the mag the first time I fire a load. I shoot one round and then inspect the round left in the mag to see if the COL changed due to the recoil. (Checking crimp / neck tension.)
- Since I'll sacrifice the first 1-2 rounds in function testing, I'll then fire the remaining of that load while seated and my wrists on a rest.
- Whichever one functions and groups well - that's my answer.
Lastly, many times folks are perplexed by the wide range of starting and max loads between different sources. I wish I could remember who - but someone here years ago explained it in a way that was like a laser to the center of my brain: Load data documents what the publisher tested. The "Max", for example, is not necessarily a max from the standpoint that it represents max SAAMI pressure. It is only saying "This is the max we tested. It's how high we went....and the results we got from the particular lot of powder we were using, the primer we used, the charge we used, the COL we used, and the gun we used." I certainly would not go over a published max. But that doesn't mean the published max is at SAAMI pressure limits.
OR
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rfwobbly
Member
You are getting a lot of good information, but from my reading it is mixed is with tidbits of poor information, and like the one bad apple... Let's try to set some things straight...
► The OAL in the load recipe is part of the report the lab is making on pressure testing. Since both the amount of powder and the OAL affect pressure they must Report the OAL they used. Their OAL may or may not work for you. You have to determine what works in your gun. They have no idea what works in your gun. So the OAL listed in the load manual is absolutely NOT a recommendation. What the load manual is telling you is basically... This worked for us and no one died. Now go make it work for you.
► There are "limits" or "boundaries" set on OAL. SAAMI sets physical limits which you can look up online. Within those boundaries are safety limits set by the recipe and what Max OAL your gun's barrel can physically accept without causing a dangerous Out Of Battery (OOB) firing condition. The Max OAL then is actually defined by the barrel-to-bullet interface, which will obviously change with every different brand, weight and type of bullet. All these numbers are "set in stone", making for the Science of Reloading. Then, as long as you "play" inside the range defined by these limits, like keeping the football between the chalk lines on a football field, your safety is insured.
Beyond all that, once inside the safety limits, there are gains in accuracy to make. Those choices are part of the Art of Reloading. The art I like may not be the art you like, and so that is a much more personal choice. The cartoon below tries to visually explain the boundaries you need to play inside...
Welcome to the big adventure called Reloading.
Hope this helps.
.
► The OAL in the load recipe is part of the report the lab is making on pressure testing. Since both the amount of powder and the OAL affect pressure they must Report the OAL they used. Their OAL may or may not work for you. You have to determine what works in your gun. They have no idea what works in your gun. So the OAL listed in the load manual is absolutely NOT a recommendation. What the load manual is telling you is basically... This worked for us and no one died. Now go make it work for you.
► There are "limits" or "boundaries" set on OAL. SAAMI sets physical limits which you can look up online. Within those boundaries are safety limits set by the recipe and what Max OAL your gun's barrel can physically accept without causing a dangerous Out Of Battery (OOB) firing condition. The Max OAL then is actually defined by the barrel-to-bullet interface, which will obviously change with every different brand, weight and type of bullet. All these numbers are "set in stone", making for the Science of Reloading. Then, as long as you "play" inside the range defined by these limits, like keeping the football between the chalk lines on a football field, your safety is insured.
Beyond all that, once inside the safety limits, there are gains in accuracy to make. Those choices are part of the Art of Reloading. The art I like may not be the art you like, and so that is a much more personal choice. The cartoon below tries to visually explain the boundaries you need to play inside...
Welcome to the big adventure called Reloading.
Hope this helps.
.
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I too like to do things in exacting ways. But take the advice here, start with the basics and learn as you go before attempting any advanced techniques. Read your manual's and re-read. Then start at the start charge in the data with 5 rounds then work your way up about.5 grains at a time. I haven't heard of anyone doing even after working up a load. I know in all of my calibers I've reached my best accuracy before reaching max powder charge.
Sounds like you just may need the seat the bullets a little deeper since 9mm brass really doesnt need trimming as much as other cases in my experience. You are probably safe as that oal you mentioned but since you are new id get into the habit of not exceeding any recommendations by reloading manufacturers.
DukeConnor
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I just about exclusively shoot hp38/w231 in my handguns. I have used other powders but I keep going back to my first powder. I keep my 9mm loads in the 3.8-4.0 range. lately I've been mostly shooting home cast bullets but awhile ago i settled on
the following hp38 loads
9mm-4gr 124 cast
40-4.5gr 160gr cast
45-5.0 200 gr cast
I confess i used similar numbers when i was loading FMJ.
I just have never seen much of a difference between bullet and powder choice when shooting at handgun ranges.
I have basically settled on the most economical bullet and powder combos that shoot poa.
And I suck with a handgun so it really doesn't matter what loads I shoot.
the following hp38 loads
9mm-4gr 124 cast
40-4.5gr 160gr cast
45-5.0 200 gr cast
I confess i used similar numbers when i was loading FMJ.
I just have never seen much of a difference between bullet and powder choice when shooting at handgun ranges.
I have basically settled on the most economical bullet and powder combos that shoot poa.
And I suck with a handgun so it really doesn't matter what loads I shoot.
lordpaxman
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@rfwobbly has a great picture that basically says for a beginner, don’t go below the published COL and don’t go above the SAAMI spec. And stay within the published powder load data.
I hope you’re good at taking notes, that’s a lot of permutations to start with. In the future, you may want to choose a single COL like 1.160 or 1.150 , load a handful at your starting powder weight and test them first. There’s nothing more frustrating than having to pull 50-100 rounds because you know they won’t even cycle in your gun. Then you can run a powder ladder go from there. You mentioned you’ll be looking for “issues”, have you thought about what those might be other than groups on paper? Good luck!
I only loaded 10 of each mainly because I don’t have anywhere to shoot unless I go to my prop upstate or range. So I figured i would load 10 and if those 10 don’t cycle then I only have to pull 7 or 8 depending on how many I shoot.
Issues I’ll be looking for I guess are the gun not feeding, cycling, pressure marks on case, inconsistent primer strikes etc. along with flyers on paper.
As far as the beginners guide, I can’t imagine loading 1.110 COL when my barrel and mag can accept 1.170+. There’s a very good possibility my measurements are incorrect but I’m hoping the range test will tell me.
Prowler53
Member
124 Berry's RN 4.1 grains W231/HP-38 @ 1.135 oal. Avg: 1055 FPS. Just ran those thru the chrono last week.
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lordpaxman
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Looking forward to the range report! Gun malfunctions should be recorded, and of course pressure signs although keep in mind in pistol cartridges you may not see them before it’s too late. I take notes on felt recoil, group size, smoke and case sooting. I also employ a chrono since I need to know velocities. Each load gets a separate 10 yard target and I use an inexpensive rest to try to take some of me out of the equation. Good luck!
Berry's statement on loading their bullets
https://www.berrysmfg.com/faq
Also, you can look up your specific bullet on their web page, click on the Loading Tips tab and find COL.
https://www.berrysmfg.com/faq
Also, you can look up your specific bullet on their web page, click on the Loading Tips tab and find COL.
I read all of this post but can't find where you mentioned which pistol (or PCC) you are shooting that passes a plunk test at 1.197" as well as fit into the magazine. Inquiring minds would like to know.
Thanks and good luck
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