there are all types of bullets out there, and quite a few being developed and marketed... from a personal defense standpoint what is the next step going to be in terms of end-performance? right now the corbon powerball is looking pretty good to me.
next big thing in handgun ammunition?
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Snowdog
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I see smaller, higher velocity handgun rounds taking the field over the next few decades. I wouldn't doubt if someone offers a propriety version of the 7.62x25 with the same if not higher velocities (interchangeability with existing surplus 7.62x25 fodder could also be possible).
However, if this route is chosen, I believe it will feature a shortened case to allow for better grip ergonomics and prevent the use of anything other than propriety ammuniton.
Some (handloaders) are loading 85gr JSPs to 1900 fps and 110gr near 1700 fps currently for the older CZ-52, so a newly made, high capacity, super velocity handgun isn't far fetched.
Ok, I admit... I've been praying for some major firearm manufacturer to get off their bum and offer something commercial chambered in 7.62x25 for ages now.
However, if this route is chosen, I believe it will feature a shortened case to allow for better grip ergonomics and prevent the use of anything other than propriety ammuniton.
Some (handloaders) are loading 85gr JSPs to 1900 fps and 110gr near 1700 fps currently for the older CZ-52, so a newly made, high capacity, super velocity handgun isn't far fetched.
Ok, I admit... I've been praying for some major firearm manufacturer to get off their bum and offer something commercial chambered in 7.62x25 for ages now.
5.7 x 28mm
FN has a lite polymer 20rd pistol that is chambered in a 5.7 x 28mm very high velocity bottleneck that has armor piercing ability. It's using a 30-40 gr bullet and is sold to military or law enforcement.
FN has a lite polymer 20rd pistol that is chambered in a 5.7 x 28mm very high velocity bottleneck that has armor piercing ability. It's using a 30-40 gr bullet and is sold to military or law enforcement.
For close range maybe light weight frangibles will be further developed. OTOH .. there is still a place IMO for the heavies too ..... this guy .....
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=54804&highlight=bullet
Is hard at work developing ''nasties'' ....... and tho they cost ... has to be remembered just how much time, cost and research goes into developing real ''stoppers''.
I agree ... Powrball looks good - very good ... but man's ingenuity - when it comes to designing things to hurt others ..... is almost without bounds!
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=54804&highlight=bullet
Is hard at work developing ''nasties'' ....... and tho they cost ... has to be remembered just how much time, cost and research goes into developing real ''stoppers''.
I agree ... Powrball looks good - very good ... but man's ingenuity - when it comes to designing things to hurt others ..... is almost without bounds!
Expanding ammo that lacks the "clog problem" has a lot of potential. The E-FMJ and Pow'R'Ball are both steps in that direction, and I doubt they're the last steps.
Cor-Bon is having problems with bullet weight though. The 45ACP at 165grains was bad enough, although still functional...the 9mm flavor is 105grains if I recall. That's...low. Possibly too low. If they try with 32ACP or something, the dangthings will evaporate.
If somebody can clone the concept while keeping bullet weight up, they'll beat Cor-Bon.
Cor-Bon is having problems with bullet weight though. The 45ACP at 165grains was bad enough, although still functional...the 9mm flavor is 105grains if I recall. That's...low. Possibly too low. If they try with 32ACP or something, the dangthings will evaporate.
If somebody can clone the concept while keeping bullet weight up, they'll beat Cor-Bon.
I agree with Jim on this.
Also improvements in metallury used in bullets, I'm still a fan of Win. STHP for some uses but feel that bullet tweaked with some metallurgy would be much improved. I like the reliable feeding of the STHP in semi's. Denny Hansens's test of the Taurus Copper hex bullet shows some promise as well.
Another area is improved powders.
The plugged hollowpoint and EFMJ loads have a way to go.
The EFMJ doesn't expand nearly as wide as a quality hollowpoint and the bullet must be longer to be the same weight as half the core is sillicon, allowing les powder capacity. +P EFMJ doesn't generate any higher velocities than standard pressure ball ammo.
The Powerball, to achieve expansion requires a high velocity. To do this they use lighter bullets. Although they do expand well, penetration is lacking due to the reduced weight and jacket seperation is a problem, as it is with all corbon loads (Sierra bullets are not bonded). I've seen tests with 9mm powerball penetrating only 5-7" in gelatin. Compare this to 13+" with other quality 9mm hollowpoints.
I expect to see more non toxic bullets. Bullets that don't use lead, like the taurus Hex rounds.
The EFMJ doesn't expand nearly as wide as a quality hollowpoint and the bullet must be longer to be the same weight as half the core is sillicon, allowing les powder capacity. +P EFMJ doesn't generate any higher velocities than standard pressure ball ammo.
The Powerball, to achieve expansion requires a high velocity. To do this they use lighter bullets. Although they do expand well, penetration is lacking due to the reduced weight and jacket seperation is a problem, as it is with all corbon loads (Sierra bullets are not bonded). I've seen tests with 9mm powerball penetrating only 5-7" in gelatin. Compare this to 13+" with other quality 9mm hollowpoints.
I expect to see more non toxic bullets. Bullets that don't use lead, like the taurus Hex rounds.
I think the next "big push" will be in the area of range ammo. I'll sell your dept Brand X superdupper, "and" I'll also supply Brand Y practice ammo that shoots to the same POA, is non-toxic primed, and disinagrates on contact with backstops. Yes, there are existing examples, but I see the market for future sales along these lines. Spillover into civilian indoor range sales will be a byproduct.
Corbon has no doubt worked long and hard with Powrball ..... and remembering also that bullet weight is preferred to rear .... has occurred to me to wonder what would happen if the ''ball'' aspect was made heavier.
I imagine if it was a hard lead ball then there would perhaps be a danger of fusion with base lead and so no expansion ...... OTOH wonder whether any possibilities with steel ball. Guess it's all been tried but this would help pick up that ''weight loss'' aspect.
My buddy who swages has made some particularly nasty .45's with a compressed tungsten core ..... these are devastating when they are upset .... they more or less explode - and are heavy.
I imagine if it was a hard lead ball then there would perhaps be a danger of fusion with base lead and so no expansion ...... OTOH wonder whether any possibilities with steel ball. Guess it's all been tried but this would help pick up that ''weight loss'' aspect.
My buddy who swages has made some particularly nasty .45's with a compressed tungsten core ..... these are devastating when they are upset .... they more or less explode - and are heavy.
A steel ball in a hollowpoint has been tried...Winchester did this in 25ACP of all things many years ago.
In many states (and possibly Fed rules?) you run into legal issues with a "steel pointed round"
. (Done up hot enough and with too small a ball in a serious caliber, you might in fact accidentally produce something that'll blow through Level 2A like it wasn't even there...)
A copper ball might solve some of the legal issues, so long as it didn't actually blow past Level 2 armor. Make it round in front, pointed in back so it "splits" the lead properly?
Here's my idea for a "revolver only" clog-resistant load:
In many states (and possibly Fed rules?) you run into legal issues with a "steel pointed round"
. (Done up hot enough and with too small a ball in a serious caliber, you might in fact accidentally produce something that'll blow through Level 2A like it wasn't even there...)A copper ball might solve some of the legal issues, so long as it didn't actually blow past Level 2 armor. Make it round in front, pointed in back so it "splits" the lead properly?
Here's my idea for a "revolver only" clog-resistant load:
im also hoping for very cheap (think .22lr cheap) range ammo in the major calibers (9mm and up) ... something that would act very much like a 'real' bullet, but without the terminal balistics (or whatever they needed to sacrafice to keep it cheap)
I wish they would do something in between "snake shot" and JHPs for handgun users. Something like buckshot for a pistol.
I also wish they'd make an ammo for "unusual indoor situations" such as rats. This would have to be a little more quiet but work better than "snake shot."
Cheers,
Wes
I also wish they'd make an ammo for "unusual indoor situations" such as rats. This would have to be a little more quiet but work better than "snake shot."
Cheers,
Wes
Mannlicher
Member
Some one is going to have to offer a lot of proof, that a tiny fasts bullet is better than a fat slow one. Until then, no matter what the gunzines push, or the gun makers come out with, I am sticking with my .45 Auto, with 230Gr HydroShocks.
The "very light for the caliber" bullets all have a serious problem - penetration. None of them penetrates enough (IMHO) to be seriously considered as a self-defense round. Yes, if you hit someone in the chest, and they are wearing nothing but a t-shirt, 5-7 inches of penetration may be fine. But if they put a hand or an arm in front of their body, they are wearing heavier clothing, they have a good layer of body fat, that 5-7 inches of penetration isn't going to be enough to reach the structures that you need to disrupt to stop an attacker. Right now, the best thing going are the "mid weight for the caliber" premium jacketed hollow points, like the Speer Gold Dot. They expand well, penetrate well (12-16 inches), and seem to work pretty well in their intended application. To truly advance, we need something that works better than that, in other words, penetrates just as well, but expands to a larger diameter or expands more reliably than what we have now. If you're just trading penetration for expansion, like what is the case with the "very light for the caliber" super-fast bullets are doing, then you're not advancing at all, you're getting a less effective round that what is already out there.
I have to agree with Mannlicher. Big,fat, and slow has worked for almost 100 years in the .45 ACP. If someboby comes up with something better, fine. Until then, I'll stick with what has been proven to work.
Also, does anyone know how hard the new Heavi-Shot shotgun pellets are? Is it soft as lead? Will it take rifiling like lead or copper? Just curious.
Also, does anyone know how hard the new Heavi-Shot shotgun pellets are? Is it soft as lead? Will it take rifiling like lead or copper? Just curious.
if everyone would just see the light, we could end the 'big/slow' vs. 'light/fast' debate and all carry 10mm as our personal defense round of choice
TTBOMK heavishot is tungsten and therefore denser and much harder than lead. As hard as steel in fact.
Tungsten handgun bullets are not legal.
The 5.7 FN and Boz are about like .22 Hornet and .218 Bee. Nobody would call a Hornet rifle a first choice defense weapon. The only purpose for the .22 centerfire pistols is their AP ammo (not available to Americans) that can at least deliver some sort of wound through body armor.
The 5.7 FN and Boz are about like .22 Hornet and .218 Bee. Nobody would call a Hornet rifle a first choice defense weapon. The only purpose for the .22 centerfire pistols is their AP ammo (not available to Americans) that can at least deliver some sort of wound through body armor.
A couple of notes here..........great stuff so far. As far as a cross between snake shot and a JHP...check out magsafe. Its exactly what you are talking about.
I think Frangibles because of the 911 situation have gotten alot of R&D lately and still DONT carry them..........
The filled JHP whether covered/plastic/rubber.....Like Corbon/EFMJ's are gonna be very very good in the future. They havent been out that long, relatively speaking, and they have fairly promising results.
A heavy Powrball would be a good thing. The reason why people are going with lighter loads is more velocity....Its easier to get "More FPE" from a lighter faster bullet than it is a slower and heavier bullet and for whatever reason................the more FPE a load has the more they sell.
If they can come up with a way to get similar Energy levels from mid weight load, say a 195-205gr Powerball in a 45 ACP...I think they would have a big time hit.................
Shoot well........
I think Frangibles because of the 911 situation have gotten alot of R&D lately and still DONT carry them..........
The filled JHP whether covered/plastic/rubber.....Like Corbon/EFMJ's are gonna be very very good in the future. They havent been out that long, relatively speaking, and they have fairly promising results.
A heavy Powrball would be a good thing. The reason why people are going with lighter loads is more velocity....Its easier to get "More FPE" from a lighter faster bullet than it is a slower and heavier bullet and for whatever reason................the more FPE a load has the more they sell.
If they can come up with a way to get similar Energy levels from mid weight load, say a 195-205gr Powerball in a 45 ACP...I think they would have a big time hit.................
Shoot well........
To elaborate on an earlier post:
I would like to see (but don't really expect) every maker of 20-to-the-box boutique bullet ammo offer a matching practice load. It should be of the same bullet weight, shape, and velocity. Price could be kept down by using coated or plated lead bullets in the standard weights, probably zinc in the light and very light types. You wouldn't need extra clean or low flash powder or bullet and primer sealant to make ammo that would feed the same, kick the same, and shoot to the same zero as your premium business loads.
Glaser was planning something like that but after Jack Cannon's death, his successors did not follow through on it.
I wonder if Federal EFMJ could not be made to work in a roundnose shape. The current stuff is at least as flat nosed as hollowpoint, probably more, and loses half the potential advantage of the design, the smooth feeding of ball.
I would like to see (but don't really expect) every maker of 20-to-the-box boutique bullet ammo offer a matching practice load. It should be of the same bullet weight, shape, and velocity. Price could be kept down by using coated or plated lead bullets in the standard weights, probably zinc in the light and very light types. You wouldn't need extra clean or low flash powder or bullet and primer sealant to make ammo that would feed the same, kick the same, and shoot to the same zero as your premium business loads.
Glaser was planning something like that but after Jack Cannon's death, his successors did not follow through on it.
I wonder if Federal EFMJ could not be made to work in a roundnose shape. The current stuff is at least as flat nosed as hollowpoint, probably more, and loses half the potential advantage of the design, the smooth feeding of ball.
I know that you can't substitute a steel/tungsten ball for the Pow'r'Ball ball (may be considered armor piercing), but I wonder if you could keep the polymer ball in the tip but use a denser metal (bismuth, Hevi-Shot, etc.) in the base for a heavier bullet & more weight retention?...
Jim: That looks a lot like an old reloader's trick I've seen. You take a hollow-base wadcutter-style bullet, cut it from the base to the middle w/ a hacksaw (either as a "|" or "X" pattern), and load the bullet hollow-base forward. When the bullet hits an animal, the cuts cause the bullet to expand & fragment. Makes some pretty nasty wounds.
My predictions for the future of ammo is:
1. More EMFJ-type ammo for police use & hunting.
2. Smaller, higher velocity ammo (.32NAA, 5.7x28mm, etc)
3. More non-lead, non-toxic, sintered-metal bullets.
4. More federal regulation on guns & ammo.
5. A run on reloading & bullet-making books & equipment (esp. on making your own gunpowder & primers).
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