NH: Vid of my latest open carry incident
- Thread starter DadaOrwell2
- Start date
- Status
kingpin008
Member
Good for ya'll for standing up for your rights, and good for you for remaining calm and conversing with the officers in a calm, reasonable fashion - but your friend was acting poorly. His attitude and tone of voice is outwardly challenging, very condescending, and honestly, I don't see why he even opened his mouth to begin with, except to get on tape. You were doing just fine on your own, the incident was being video & audio recorded, and he's all over the place egging the cops on and making the entire things more complicated than it needed to be.
I understand that you need to represent yourselves and stand up for your rights, that's obvious, and commendable. His presence made me feel a little like this was a publicity stunt though. Maybe he wants it to be. Who knows.
I understand that you need to represent yourselves and stand up for your rights, that's obvious, and commendable. His presence made me feel a little like this was a publicity stunt though. Maybe he wants it to be. Who knows.
Last edited by a moderator:
fletcher
Member
With an attitude like that, I can't imagine you're doing the public a service either.
DadaOrwell2 - Overall, great work. Hopefully they learned that OC is legal, and not to harass anyone else they ever see doing it. For those of you who find this type of thing ridiculous, it's even more ridiculous that this happened in the first place. It takes "attention whoring" to show people who otherwise wouldn't see, or care, that this is something you're legally allowed to do, that it hurts no one, and you're not going to take BS about it.
I love what the officer with the mesh hat said. He says (with respect to the signs/law) - "we're all the same", but then he starts on the guy's case for videotaping. I guess we're not the same, after all.
response to Sistema1927
No, I don't aggree with the statement. My first post pretty much summed up what I think.
My response to you was a little on the rude side even, but you have to understand that G21 and G51 look a lot alike and I thought you were telling me to go to California. I've been called a liberal on here a time or two as well and it rubbed me the wrong way. We spend alot of time on here bashing each other instead of debating the issues. 'nuff said.
No, I don't aggree with the statement. My first post pretty much summed up what I think.
My response to you was a little on the rude side even, but you have to understand that G21 and G51 look a lot alike and I thought you were telling me to go to California. I've been called a liberal on here a time or two as well and it rubbed me the wrong way. We spend alot of time on here bashing each other instead of debating the issues. 'nuff said.
Sistema1927
Member
goings_51,
I will accept that as an apology. Now, let's work together to validate Dada's actions as the proper conduct of a free man in exercising his freedom.
I will accept that as an apology. Now, let's work together to validate Dada's actions as the proper conduct of a free man in exercising his freedom.
Sistema1927
Member
2TransAms,
Sometimes freedom isn't expedient. It is the little flies that spoil the ointment, and the little infringements that steal away our rights. Rather than criticizing his conduct, more of us should be courageous enough to emulate it.
I'm gonna go back to my original post here... it's just rude to cary on a telephone conversation while talking to the police. It's disrespectful. He could have made the call and informed the officer that the conversation was being recorded, but he should not have continued talking on the phone.
On the ID question, it's the law in most places. On the initial stop, I can't remember the case, but there is a famous supreme court case on this. An officer can stop and even frisk you without much reason at all. I still say cooperate on the scene, complain later. I still say the freind was trying to provoke an incident.
For all of the fact stating going on, I aggree with all of those facts. The facts are pretty clear, but there is a lot of lawyering going on here. The eventual outcome was that everyone walked away. Handling this situation the way I suggested would have had the same outcome, but with a lot more goodwill all around.
On the ID question, it's the law in most places. On the initial stop, I can't remember the case, but there is a famous supreme court case on this. An officer can stop and even frisk you without much reason at all. I still say cooperate on the scene, complain later. I still say the freind was trying to provoke an incident.
For all of the fact stating going on, I aggree with all of those facts. The facts are pretty clear, but there is a lot of lawyering going on here. The eventual outcome was that everyone walked away. Handling this situation the way I suggested would have had the same outcome, but with a lot more goodwill all around.
Oleg Volk
Moderator Emeritus
Rude behavior will not be tolerated here. Please practice the non-aggression principle on THR.
Since when do you have to present government id in California or Texas or anywhere in America as a pedestrian?
Someone ought to site a law or example of this. Seems bogus to me. Same can be said about the federal agent comment too. I wasn't aware the right to remain silent was suspended when talking to ATF agents.
/I have many times steamed down to the west coast of the lower 48 and haven't had government issued id on me.
//Live free or die. Big respect to you and your friends.
///Shame on G21, I really hope he isn't a cop.
Someone ought to site a law or example of this. Seems bogus to me. Same can be said about the federal agent comment too. I wasn't aware the right to remain silent was suspended when talking to ATF agents.
/I have many times steamed down to the west coast of the lower 48 and haven't had government issued id on me.
//Live free or die. Big respect to you and your friends.
///Shame on G21, I really hope he isn't a cop.
The Deer Hunter
Member
The guy in the backround repeating "this is rediculous" is really annoying. Didn't help things out at all
http://www.texasdefenselaw.com/recent_news/
It doesn't sound like this case meets the bar, so I guess I learned something too. What we don't know is if maybe there had been an armed robery 2 blocks away earlier in the day. In that case, the officer would have been in his rights...but that is Texas law.
It doesn't sound like this case meets the bar, so I guess I learned something too. What we don't know is if maybe there had been an armed robery 2 blocks away earlier in the day. In that case, the officer would have been in his rights...but that is Texas law.
As I stated in my original post, if not for the camera and cellular telephone, this situation would have ended very different. The friend's rude intervention would have been "...obstruction...", and the failure to cooperate would have been the same. That acknowledged, two wrongs not one right make.
goings_51:
I don't see the standard as being met Re: suspected criminal. The officer was merely uniformed. I have listened to the video multiple times and I have yet to be able to pick a quote to demonstrate suspected criminal activity.
goings_51:
I don't see the standard as being met Re: suspected criminal. The officer was merely uniformed. I have listened to the video multiple times and I have yet to be able to pick a quote to demonstrate suspected criminal activity.
kingpin008
Member
I knew I was going a bit too far calling the guy a D***, but that was the closest I could come to expressing his actions.
How about instigator? That fits, I think. I don't have a problem with his being there, but he had nothing to do with the incident, except as an observer. He chose to inject himself into it, in a most...rude and unnecessary way. I shouldn't be calling names, but he bothered me.
Ah well. FWIW, I apologize for the language.
Good on the OP, for making people aware of your rights. My only suggestion would be to let that guy know that how he was coming off has a good possibility of making those less informed think that by open carrying and participating in these sorts of incidents you're looking to purposefully stir up trouble. No good can come of that.
How about instigator? That fits, I think. I don't have a problem with his being there, but he had nothing to do with the incident, except as an observer. He chose to inject himself into it, in a most...rude and unnecessary way. I shouldn't be calling names, but he bothered me.
Ah well. FWIW, I apologize for the language.
Good on the OP, for making people aware of your rights. My only suggestion would be to let that guy know that how he was coming off has a good possibility of making those less informed think that by open carrying and participating in these sorts of incidents you're looking to purposefully stir up trouble. No good can come of that.
silverlance
Member
I agree entirely with the CA LEO who posted earlier (at least, I hope he's an LEO... otherwise he will have a lot of explaining to do if he pulls a citizen's arrest on another citizen for waving his arms in front of his face).
If that had been CA, both he and his friend would have been arrested. Also, he would have stood a decent chance of getting shot when he moved his left arm over to support his right elbow.
I'm not JBTing or anything like that. just saying it like it is. We have all read and seen the stories. I myself have been one the receiving end of LAPD brusqueness. Conversations with police officers here in LA begin with a pat down and handcuffs. I'm absolutely serious. I should know - I am involved with LE myself in my job.
What I liked most about this video was the way the prot absolutely knew his laws, and was firmly (non apologetically) stating his convictions.
This is what we ALL need to do. We owe it to ourselves to know our state's laws damn well, so well that we can say at any given moment, "law requires me to do THIS... law does not require me to do THAT."
now, a further question, then -
how do you (collectively) feel about keeping recording devices in your car/personals?
If that had been CA, both he and his friend would have been arrested. Also, he would have stood a decent chance of getting shot when he moved his left arm over to support his right elbow.
I'm not JBTing or anything like that. just saying it like it is. We have all read and seen the stories. I myself have been one the receiving end of LAPD brusqueness. Conversations with police officers here in LA begin with a pat down and handcuffs. I'm absolutely serious. I should know - I am involved with LE myself in my job.
What I liked most about this video was the way the prot absolutely knew his laws, and was firmly (non apologetically) stating his convictions.
This is what we ALL need to do. We owe it to ourselves to know our state's laws damn well, so well that we can say at any given moment, "law requires me to do THIS... law does not require me to do THAT."
now, a further question, then -
how do you (collectively) feel about keeping recording devices in your car/personals?
IA_farmboy
Member
It's called a "Terry stop" after the court case that involved a Mr. Terry. They do need to have a suspicion that a law has been broken or will be broken, a very low standard to be met. The reason for a pat down is to look for weapons or contraband. In this case the weapon was in full view so there was likely little need to pat the guy down. The officer could have legally disarmed the man but he obviously did not for whatever reason.
There were also a couple other court cases relevant here. One with a man named Lawson and another with a man named Hiibel. Both determined (IIRC) that one is not required to present identification when asked by a LEO. The LEO may ask for a name, and depending on local laws one may be required to reply.
I won't pretend I know the laws of every US jurisdiction but I find it hard to believe that any place in the USA is someone required to present ID if stopped while walking down the street. I find that hard to believe for the simple fact that people are not (yet) required to carry ID to walk down the street.
This man was carrying a firearm so that changes things. Turns out that where he is no one is required to present ID when carrying a firearm openly. In other places the laws may be different.
Personally I'd be very reluctant to hand over my ID if stopped on the street. How do I know the LEO is going to give it back to me? As long as that LEO has my ID I'm being detained and can no longer ask the simple question, "Am I free to go now officer?" I would then also be forced to ask for my ID back as well. The LEO may simply keep it out of spite. (Remember, your gov't issued ID is the property of the gov't. It is kept on your person for the convenience of law enforcement.)
coyote_jr
member
Eh...this one could go either way I mean yes a lot of people take in NH take the "Live Free or Die" quite seriously and it is good to see the exercising of rights, the public awareness of the event with the video camera and the cell phone call, PORC411, etc. the people around questioning the validity of the stop, those were all good things...
at the same time...
to me, it comes off as a not so genuine publicity stunt, almost like you were waiting to be ambushed so as to counterstrike at a moments notice which kind of sours all the good things about the event. Again just my opinion. Dada, you apparently have no duty to produce ID which good on you for taking the officer to task on it. I'm just saying with the camera rolling and you're on the phone and the crowd it sort of felt gimmicky. I wish it wasn't just you that these events keep happening too. Any chance you can get like 15-30 people OC'ing and go out to the movies or the mall or something? The PD probably thinks of you as some green party nut just because the way these things end up on Youtube and turn into someone making a statement.
at the same time...
to me, it comes off as a not so genuine publicity stunt, almost like you were waiting to be ambushed so as to counterstrike at a moments notice which kind of sours all the good things about the event. Again just my opinion. Dada, you apparently have no duty to produce ID which good on you for taking the officer to task on it. I'm just saying with the camera rolling and you're on the phone and the crowd it sort of felt gimmicky. I wish it wasn't just you that these events keep happening too. Any chance you can get like 15-30 people OC'ing and go out to the movies or the mall or something? The PD probably thinks of you as some green party nut just because the way these things end up on Youtube and turn into someone making a statement.
Let's see...according to the majority of people here, open carry is perfectly legal, and, one is not required to show identification.
So that means if you are a convicted felon, or an escaped fugitive, or wanted by the law for massive amounts of warrants, then all you have to do is walk around New Hamp with a holstered gun, and if a cop wants to check if you are legally able to carry that gun, then you talk into a cell phone, and state you are not required by law to show any ID.
You guys were critical of G21, but what he said was correct. Sorry if the truth hurts.
So that means if you are a convicted felon, or an escaped fugitive, or wanted by the law for massive amounts of warrants, then all you have to do is walk around New Hamp with a holstered gun, and if a cop wants to check if you are legally able to carry that gun, then you talk into a cell phone, and state you are not required by law to show any ID.
You guys were critical of G21, but what he said was correct. Sorry if the truth hurts.
Sistema1927
Member
At the same time, it is rude to accost and detain a law abiding citizen on the street when there is no suspicion of illegal activity. If not for both the cell phone and the camera, I have a suspicion that the OP would have been cuffed and taken to the pokie for nothing except for the exercise of his rights.
I am also still waiting for someone to direct me to either the relevant state or federal law that requires that a pedestrian must produce a government ID when approached by the police. While this may be the common practise today (thanks to the "War on Drugs") since when did it become the law of the land? If asked, I will give my name, and even my address, but I don't believe that I need to comply with "papers, please", at least not yet.
Sistema1927
Member
Aloha!,
That is an excellent example of what is commonly called "the Strawman". Do you believe that you are guilty until proven innocent? That is what your post implies: Every person on the street is a suspect until they prove otherwise.
I hope you see that your "Strawman" burns quite nicely.
Snarlingiron
Member
WOW!! I find the video fascinating. I find some of the attitudes expressed perplexing. As to all those that state that DadaOrwell2 was "grandstanding", or "provoking the situation", I can only point out that he says
I say Good Job DadaOrwell2! I have always made it my own personal agenda to question authority. Not resist it, just make sure it is legally asserted. When we fail to do this, as most people do, then authority will be exerted without regard to what is legal.
. As an activist the job he has assigned himself is to provoke such incidents in order to educate the public to his point of view. Whether you agree with him or not, we are talking about the issues.
I say Good Job DadaOrwell2! I have always made it my own personal agenda to question authority. Not resist it, just make sure it is legally asserted. When we fail to do this, as most people do, then authority will be exerted without regard to what is legal.
rbernie
Contributing Member
The sad part is that most folks live exactly under this set of circumstances and see nothing at all wrong with it.
<sigh>
DadaOrwell2
Member
thanks for the responses guys. with regard to russell, the angry supporter....there is a reason why he gets testy with manchester PD. they locked him up and dragged his wife into a paddy wagon for peaceably demonstrating outside a "free speech zone" while the president was in town. He was at a bus stop, not on private property. Secret service refused to help prosecute him so the case was dismissed.
but yes it's better not to get testy and especially i'm against humiliating government personell in any way. The fact that they're essentially our opponents makes it twice as important to treat them with kindness if at all possible.
Also here's video of an earlier open carry incident with me and a Concord NH cop.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=mu4Dr3B3Rg4
I just now got this youtube account so I just now posted there the background information.
I've had three incidents in three years....the first one i was alone, these second two i had friends within running distance. Yes I would much rather have the cops walk away feeling like they have made new friends as opposed to walking away chastised... That's what happened in the previous incident; it's what usually happens in Manchester when cops see my pistol. I will do what I can to make the next incident more amicable. but bear in mind that will probably mean you never hear about it.
but yes it's better not to get testy and especially i'm against humiliating government personell in any way. The fact that they're essentially our opponents makes it twice as important to treat them with kindness if at all possible.
Also here's video of an earlier open carry incident with me and a Concord NH cop.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=mu4Dr3B3Rg4
I just now got this youtube account so I just now posted there the background information.
I've had three incidents in three years....the first one i was alone, these second two i had friends within running distance. Yes I would much rather have the cops walk away feeling like they have made new friends as opposed to walking away chastised... That's what happened in the previous incident; it's what usually happens in Manchester when cops see my pistol. I will do what I can to make the next incident more amicable. but bear in mind that will probably mean you never hear about it.
Nakedshoplifter
Member
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2007
- Messages
- 12
I open carry in Virginia, I carry a video camera, and I would refuse to provide ID unless involved in an activity requiring it such as driving or carrying concealed. So by most logic in this thread, I am provoking a confrontation with the police? I'm looking for trouble?
Is it really that difficult to understand that lawful activity does not warrant detainment by authorities? For all of you taking sides with the cops in the video, would you feel the same way if the man was detained because of the political expression on his shirt? After all, nothing was illegal about his t-shirt, so why would they detain him for that? The same logic applies to the lawful carry of a firearm. If it's legal to do so in your state, it is unlawful for the authorities to detain you for questions pertaining to your lawful firearm carry.
Why the video camera? Because cops can and will lie, or otherwise handle themselves much differently when they know their actions are not being recorded. In fact, recording the police is the BEST way to ensure they act appropriately. Don't believe me when I say that cops lie? Check out the videos below:
http://policeabuse.org/the_one/shame.html
Lastly, I am a member of opencarry.org... we had a peaceful picnic in a county park which was interrupted by Fairfax County PD responding to a "man with gun" call. They thought they were looking for one guy, imagine their surprise when they showed up and ALL of us had guns!
http://youtube.com/results?search_query=ocdo+picnic
Is it really that difficult to understand that lawful activity does not warrant detainment by authorities? For all of you taking sides with the cops in the video, would you feel the same way if the man was detained because of the political expression on his shirt? After all, nothing was illegal about his t-shirt, so why would they detain him for that? The same logic applies to the lawful carry of a firearm. If it's legal to do so in your state, it is unlawful for the authorities to detain you for questions pertaining to your lawful firearm carry.
Why the video camera? Because cops can and will lie, or otherwise handle themselves much differently when they know their actions are not being recorded. In fact, recording the police is the BEST way to ensure they act appropriately. Don't believe me when I say that cops lie? Check out the videos below:
http://policeabuse.org/the_one/shame.html
Lastly, I am a member of opencarry.org... we had a peaceful picnic in a county park which was interrupted by Fairfax County PD responding to a "man with gun" call. They thought they were looking for one guy, imagine their surprise when they showed up and ALL of us had guns!
http://youtube.com/results?search_query=ocdo+picnic
- Status
