NICS accessible by non-LEOs, non-FFLs?

Status
Not open for further replies.
L

Liko81

Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
Messages
176
I was, for the better part of this year, not speaking to my parents for reasons which I shall not disclose :mad:. They got seriously worried that something was wrong :fire::fire: and tried to make sure they had all of my correct information. Apparently, one of the resources available to my parents, however indirectly, was NICS. I don't know exactly how it happened, but I know my father is an agent of the state (TCEQ) and probably has more connections in the TxDPS than your average citizen. In any case, the police may have acquiesced based solely on the fact that they were family.

Anyway, they were able to use NICS to verify my address, and ALSO to discover that I now owned a 9mm handgun. They didn't consider that a big deal (they've seen the neighborhood), but it was information that I had wanted, at least for a while, to conceal from them.

So, be aware; if someone knows enough about you to convince police they're family or an S/O, either by pretexting or actual knowledge, they can get your NICS information including the guns in your possession. I wonder if, similar to your credit report, you can ask to have your NICS data blocked from civilian inquiry?
 
Strange indeed, considering that the feds *say* that NICS computer records are purged/deleted within 24 hours of the transaction.

Sounds like anecdotal evidence that the folks at NICS arent doing things the way its supposed to be done.
 
Certainly a privacy issue. Your parents had noble intentions, so not that big of a deal there I guess. But if they can do it, what of others with less noble goals?

I'd want to do something about it in a big way. It being your parents though sure makes it a difficult situation. Buuut... it doesn't sound impossible. If you're back on speaking terms, maybe try to find out EXACTLY how they did this. Based on that info, maybe you'll see an angle on some action.


-T.
 
Strange indeed, considering that the feds *say* that NICS computer records are purged/deleted within 24 hours of the transaction.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure if that would be true. The record that the search had been done probably has to be purged, but the information in the database, of course, must persist, and also, to satisfy some states' requirements of "only 1 firearm per 30 days", so must the fact that you bought a weapon in the last month. At the very least that much must be maintained. What I was POed at the time about was the fact that someone other than an LEA or FFL could get this information, through honest means or otherwise.
 
First do you KNOW they got that info thru NICS??? I did some work for Feds ending a decade ago... The info I got on people/tracking them down/tracking down "items" that had been in their posession. When I caught up they wanted to know "HOW THE HECK DID YOU FIND ME?" I always said the government has all the info needed to track anyone. (which was a lie...at least at the time/level I had access)
What I would do is "talk to people" Just by knowing their name/parents/where they were from/some past history I would drop into local watering hole (during the day) and find old geezer and shoot the bull with him for half a hour. (seldom even buy him a drink) and I would find out where my old buddy is now/who he is sleeping with, what he is doing for job and more.
I don't drink but was able to fit in many strange places and in short order the locals treated me as if I was from area. Dang that was fun. Tracked government property that changed hands 6 times/was repainted and then totally restored. They figured NOBODY would ever find it. I walk in and tell them I can tell them the serial number on that unit...
So your family found a "friend" who told them where you were/you had bought a gun and to honor their agreement "never to tell you who told them" they said he got it from his buddies.
NICS (in MN) does not have what caliber/brand gun you buy. Just if long/short.
 
NICS is not given your address nor the caliber of firearm you are purchasing. They only get your descriptive info - name, DOB, city/state you were born in, SSN if you provided it, height, weight, gender, and whether or not the firearm is a long gun or handgun.
I seriously doubt your parents got any info on your whereabouts through NICS.
 
WC145 nailed it. I can guarantee that the information did not come from the NICS database. How do I know? Because I enter information into NICS for background checks just about every day.

There is no place in NICS to enter a buyer's address or the caliber of handgun.

Depending on what state you are in (possibly TX as you mention TXDPS), certain states will require additional information and may keep extra records of buyer's info, but the NICS database on a federal level does not have the type of information you describe (and Texas doesn't keep any extra records).

So, be aware; if someone knows enough about you to convince police they're family or an S/O, either by pretexting or actual knowledge, they can get your NICS information including the guns in your possession.
Click to expand...

This is also false. Once again, NICS has no information about the guns in your possession. If the gov't is lying, and if they don't really purge the database every 24 hours, the most they would know is that on a certain day in the past you purchased either a handgun or a long gun. The make, model, serial number, caliber of any guns you purchase are not entered into NICS, and they would have no knowledge about your possession, only that at some point you made a purchase.
 
I was able to get names and addresses of all CHP licensees in my county here in North Carolina. Unfortunately, this information is public record.

I suspect the same could be done with handgun purchase permit information.
 
Texas does not have handgun purchase permits, and the Texas Legislature and the Governor made CHL information private this last session.

Jake in TX
 
They probably got your information through whatever system Texas uses to run drivers license, local alerts/warnings and to interface with NCIC. The databases are for official use only and I know of some officers and telecommunicators up here who have gotten in trouble for using them for personal business. Not saying it doesn't occur, just saying it's not supposed to.

Jeff
 
So, be aware; if someone knows enough about you to convince police they're family or an S/O, either by pretexting or actual knowledge, they can get your NICS information including the guns in your possession.
Click to expand...

proof? I'm willing to give my info to an SO who I know that is also an FFL and I bet he doesn't know what gun I bought today. Of course members of this forum do if they search for it, but I bet he doesn't know. Internet rumor mill at work.
 
Yep nowdays using access for non work related reasons will get you in trouble. Local Officers would allow me access that nowdays would get them fired. (I didn't abuse it)
Same for hospitals and most every place that has private info. Workers used to "check up" on prospective dates. "what medical issues do they have?" Now it will get them fired and every check has to be documented with reason. (not that it really stops anyone who has two brain cells)
NICS shouldn't/can't have that info. Too many easier sources for that kind of info. (I still say a friend who they are friends with/owes them a favor is most likely)
 
The record that the search had been done probably has to be purged, but the information in the database, of course, must persist, and also, to satisfy some states' requirements of "only 1 firearm per 30 days", so must the fact that you bought a weapon in the last month. At the very least that much must be maintained.
Click to expand...

Everything on the federal end of the system is supposed to be deleted. By the rules, the only record that should remain is the actual 4473 form that is retained by the FFL.

The databases that keep track of "1 gun per month" is supposed to be seperate, and administered by state governments, not the feds. Since TX does not have any such gun-per-month restriction, your info should not be in any such database.
 
I know a guy who worked for a independent corp that contracted to the state dept... Much of the tracking and data mining done is by corporations and private companies keep a database which they share/sell info. All the government does is buy it from them. Or really whoever wants to buy it. Its kinda scary... I had him look me up and the database it had some info in it that was obvious like every address I ever lived at and some I have no clue how they got. Like the name of a girl I was dating in college but never had any financial ties to. I wouldn't be surprised if some company has you earmarked for purchasing 9mm rounds as marketing data.

-Tsi

BTW big brother is watching... be careful (puts on tinfoil hat)
 
Pick any user name on this forum, and you will get all of his (her) post on this forum, and all others. I tried it once, and was shocked to see what turned up! :eek:
 
I call BS on this one. I'll admit that Texas is a federal POC state, and that I live in a state where the NICS POC is the state police. That means NICS checks in TX go through the FBI not TXDPS. In Connecticut, the only question about the firearm they ask when you call in a background check is whether it is a handgun or a long gun. Unless Texas has a backdoor registration form (like a notification of sale form) TXDPS should have no knowledge of the specifcs of your handgun.
 
I think most folks credit NICS with having a lot more information than it has. It is not a data base of the entire personal history of everyone in the country or the world. It is a data base of those convicted of certain crimes or who are otherwise prohibited from purchasing firearms. There is no gun information, no record of how many guns you or I own, no master list of serial numbers. Even a dealer or an LEO can't get information on gun purchases from NICS, because NICS doesn't have it and never had it. In spite of what I have read, NICS cannot be used to trace firearms, determine when a gun was made, or check to see if it has been altered. Nor, in spite of what has been written, does NICS run a stolen gun check (they don't get the model or serial number), so the argument that a gun is "clean" if the purchaser passed the NICS check is not true.

Since the data base is of prohibited persons, if the prospective purchaser is not listed, the purchase is approved. The only reason for the handgun or long gun question is that it can be used in some cases to determine if the person is lying about his age.

Since the majority of the people in the data base will be those who cannot legally purchase a gun at all, there is no means to determine how often a person has been "hit." Those gun buy limits ("one gun a month") are enforced in some other way, not by using NICS. In states that have them, another entity, like the state police, keeps track; NICS does not.

So however the parents found out about the 9mm pistol, it was not through NICS.

Jim
 
N.C.I.C.

National Crime Information Center

They got your name, searched the driver's license database, confirmed your address, eventually contacted you.

Almost all states' driver license information is accessible by way of the NCIC.

No mystery.
 
No need to go through a law enforcement database. There are hundreds of websites run by private companies that will provide anyone no questions asked with info on another person such as address, phone number, Social Security number, car license plate, cell phone records, bank account, credit card records, place of employment, for as little as $50.
 
Yep nowdays using access for non work related reasons will get you in trouble. Local Officers would allow me access that nowdays would get them fired. (I didn't abuse it)


Accessing any Federal database for any unofficial use is a felony. Not saying it doesn't happen.
 
The BATFE will have or can get all the info they want on you from the 4473's you fill out and are retained by FFL's and subject to inspection. With a warrant, any government law enforcement agency can look at those 4473's. And, those 4473's end up in the BATFE's hands as permanent records eventually.

Just because that info doesn't end up in the NICS doesn't mean it isn't listed somewhere else.

Woody

Our force of arms, and the right to keep and bear arms that the Constitution forbids the Union or any government under it to infringe, must be displayed from time to time. This must be done so that those who would usurp our freedoms, or dictate their unrighteous causes, or enslave us under some self-serving tyranny, will know to remain humble before us and keep their distance. B.E.Wood
 
Constitution Cowboy:

The BATFE will have or can get all the info they want on you from the 4473's you fill out and are retained by FFL's and subject to inspection. With a warrant, any government law enforcement agency can look at those 4473's. And, those 4473's end up in the BATFE's hands as permanent records eventually.

Just because that info doesn't end up in the NICS doesn't mean it isn't listed somewhere else.

Woody
Click to expand...

So the young man whose parents found out where he lived and also that he had bought a handgun could have learned it by discovering that he bought his first handgun, finding the dealer from whom he had bought the handgun, then getting a government agency to ask a judge for a warrant so that they could look at the 4473 to get his address and give it to his parents?

Any thoughts on which government agencies would go before a judge to get that warrant so they could find out his address for the parents?

My understanding is that dealers are required to hold all their 4473s until they cease business and only then transfer them to the BATFE. Am I mistaken?
 
My understanding is that dealers are required to hold all their 4473s until they cease business and only then transfer them to the BATFE. Am I mistaken?
Click to expand...

Close. 4473s must generally be held for 20 years (there are different rules for sales that were "Denied" by NICS) and then may be disposed of. When the business is closed, all 4473s not older than 20 years must be sent to the ATF.

The BATFE will have or can get all the info they want on you from the 4473's you fill out and are retained by FFL's and subject to inspection. . .
Just because that info doesn't end up in the NICS doesn't mean it isn't listed somewhere else.
Click to expand...

While these statements are true, the information is not in any database that is easily searched. The OP's parents knew his name but not address. In order to find him using 4473s, first, they would have to know or suspect that he purchased a gun. Then, they would have to find someone in the ATF willing to do random MANUAL inspections of every dealer until his name showed up on a 4473, or they would have to get some other law enforcement not in the ATF to get warrants for each gun store in the US (since they don't know his address, how will they know which state he bought a gun in?). This is a huge manpower issue, and not likely to happen for some parents wondering where their kid is.

The NICS/bound book/4473 is not a good system for tracking people (at all). It is a good system for tracking a serial numbered firearm from its manufacturer to the first person who buys it at a gun store, and attempting to make sure that the person buying it has not committed a felony or a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence. If they have a serial numbered gun that they find at a crime scene, they can theoretically track it to it's first buyer with ease. If they have a suspected murderer in handcuffs and want to know what guns he owns, it is a much more difficult task.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top