NICs check being recorded as a form of registration?

[Cannonball888]

A NICs check is not a form of registration, but on the other hand, who's to say every time an FFL phones NICs that that the Feds don't secretly RECORD the fact YOU just bought a gun? How is it being ensured that this isn't secretly being done?

 

[runrabbitrun]

I asked this on another thread.
(thanks cannon for making a thread)

Any of you CC holders
think or wonder if this information is all being complied to be
put on some national 'who's got the guns' list in the future?

You know, kind of like the UK and AU did.
(I think they had people register they had guns first...
before they told everyone to give em up?)

Is this correct?

 

[indoorsoccerfrea]

i was wondering the same thing... i bought a shotgun last week and i heard him read the serial number over the phone! it startled me and i almost asked what he thought he was doing...

 

[Lone_Gunman]

Yes, in the past the govt has illegally held on to NICS records.

Supposedly, that is no longer happening.

However, my guess is, anything that goes into a government database stays in the data base. The federal government wants to know as much about things as possible.

 

[runrabbitrun]

Kind of like the movie, Enemy Of The State.

I'm almost certain that our gov. gathers
lots of information, on all of us.
Now how they manage and use that information...
is another thing.

Remember, where talking about the government here.
When was the last time they got things right?

 

[waterhouse]

Even if they did know you bought a gun, they wouldn't know which gun or how many. Seems to me like it would be kind of a pointless database.

i bought a shotgun last week and i heard him read the serial number over the phone!

Do you go through a federal NICS check or some sort of state level one? There isn't even a spot on the federal NICS check to enter a serial number.

 

[WardenWolf]

Fact: it's a royal pain in the butt to transcribe a phone call. About all they really do is run some basic information to ensure your data does not match a known criminal.

 

[Macmac]

I once and not so long ago worked on the other side of the local gun store counter. Doing such as a hired clerk I had to be finger printed and IDed.

So then I sold guns to guys like you, and made calls to NICS.

NICS gets the info you put on the 4473 form EXCEPT the gun is offered as these 3 and only these 3 selections.

Long gun meaning a rifle or a shot gun.

Hand gun meaning a revolver.

Pistol meaning a semi auto.

No name, year, or model, and no serial numbers go to NICS.

So if NICS keeps any records on the sly, all they can know is you bought one or more of the above guns.

I bet you can't guess which of these 3 types I have, and so neither can NICS.

My best guess as to the 'heard the serial number read back over the phone was military speak read back on the date, and other related info given because talking to NICS is like talking in the military, and to a robot at that!

You heard a garbled message, which may have sounded like a serial number, or things have changed recently and I would be wrong.

Another numeral alfabit is the store code which ID's the call is real.

I am 99% sure you never really heard the serial number, but I can see how you might think so. But in that event you should have heard what specific gun model, and the makers Name.

A serial number with out the maker and the model is useless.

 

[runrabbitrun]

About all they really do is run some basic information to ensure your data does not match a known criminal.

That's my understanding too, but still, who knows who
they share that info with?

I could see a data base with
gun owners being of significant use to a government.
Especially if their intent is to disarm it's population at a later date.

And to dig further down...
I could see using inquiries originating from gun dealers...(FFL's?)
If my intent was to have a data base to collect who is
making firearm purchases. (Or at least attempting to.)

 

[Cannonball888]

Even if they did know you bought a gun, they wouldn't know which gun or how many. Seems to me like it would be kind of a pointless database.

The particulars of the gun are irrelevant. The fact that they know you are a gun owner is what matters. If gun confiscation ever happened they would know where to come. It's about efficiency---not wasting time and manpower on house to house searches of nongunowners. OK, let the tinfoil hat-flaming begin.

 

[runrabbitrun]

I see a significant reason to have such a data base.
No need for what types of guns, just where to point the
grabbers to find them.

As is stated above in post 10.

To think it's not being done is perhaps a little naive?
If history teaches us anything.

If the UK did it and AU did it.
Can't we be next?

Everything seems to be pointing that way any way, doesn't it?

 

[moooose102]

Yes, in the past the govt has illegally held on to NICS records.

Supposedly, that is no longer happening.

SURE THEY AREN'T ! do you REALLY believe that???

 

[waterhouse]

Long gun meaning a rifle or a shot gun.

Hand gun meaning a revolver.

Pistol meaning a semi auto.

The choices on the 4473 are now

*Handgun

*Long gun (Rifles or Shotguns)

*Other Firearm (Frame, Receiver, etc.)

The NICS page still says

Handgun
Long gun
Both

But the ATF has asked dealers to select Both for the frames and receivers.

The particulars of the gun are irrelevant. The fact that they know you are a gun owner is what matters.

No, they would know you were a gun owner. The concept of a database worries me a lot less since there is currently no law banning face to face sales. I'd worry about it more if they enacted that sort of law.

No need for what types of guns, just where to point the
grabbers to find them.

If they really wanted a database, it seems to me that it would be very, very easy to require dealers to enter things like the make and model of the gun, as well as the address of the buyer.

 

[runrabbitrun]

Don't the dealers have to keep hard copies of gun sales?
(models, s/n of who's bought what)

If the gov. has a list that's not too productive...
a quick run down to the local gun stores would
produce some nice info.
Wouldn't it?

 

[waterhouse]

Yes, and the man power would be simply enormous, when all of that could be automated every time a sale is made.

I have several file cabinets full of 4473s. I can't comprehend the man hours to put those documents into some sort of useful database, and I'm one small time dealer who works from home.

 

[runrabbitrun]

You need to charge the FED for storage space waterhouse.

Seriously though, say a contingent of UN
troops (or who ever) was to come to the shop.
Surly they can get that info and go house to house.

OK tin foil hat off now.

 

[StephenT]

Are FFLs obliged to retain the 4473 forms indefinitely? Or just the paperwork for the past XX years?

 

[nalioth]

Are FFLs obliged to retain the 4473 forms indefinitely? Or just the paperwork for the past XX years?

20 years retention or until they go out of business - whichever comes first.

 

[TexasRifleman]

A NICs check is not a form of registration, but on the other hand, who's to say every time an FFL phones NICs that that the Feds don't secretly RECORD the fact YOU just bought a gun? How is it being ensured that this isn't secretly being done?

Well, many states give NICS exemptions to holders of concealed handgun permits.

If it's a secret conspiracy, it's a pretty crappy one since it's missing a good number of purchases.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

If it's a secret conspiracy, it's a pretty crappy one since it's missing a good number of purchases

As others have pointed out, while NICS would not provide the govt with a comprehensive list of guns you own, it would identify you as a gun owner.

When you got your CCW, you were run through the FBI database also.

Either way, you are identified as a gun owner. Your CCW doesn't get you off the hook on that.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Either way, you are identified as a gun owner. Your CCW doesn't get you off the hook on that.

I only own that one little .22 derringer pistol, they are welcome to it any time.

 

[Rio Laxas]

Having seen the "voluntary" federal registration system first hand, I can tell you that any firearm transaction that goes through NICS is recorded in some sort of way. I have seen the result of such a system in the form of a spreadsheet that showed all of the firearms with serial numbers that an individual purchased over the course of two years at multiple locations. How they (the ATF) assembled that information is neither here nor there. The fact was they were able to get it quickly and with few errors.

They audited one FFL, but somehow were able to discover what other places that individual had purchased firearms from. If that is not the result of recording NICS checks and geographic location, then I don't know how else they could have done it.

One term you will consistently see in the future when it comes to eroding civil liberties is the term GIS (Geographic Information System) or geographic database. Like a firearm, a GIS is a tool. While it is revolutionizing many aspects of industry, it has been used to violate our civil rights and privacy.

 

[Macmac]

waterhouse thanks for the info, I see things have changed wording a little bit.

To all... yes Nics could provide information as to the fact you were a gun owner, and at a time did make purchases, but not for the exact gun, which you may still have or not.

I had a customer who came in at the near the begining of deer hunting season, and would buy a rifle as cheap as we had used, and a box of ammo.

Then the next time I saw him was nearing the end if not before, wanting me to buy the same gun back and the ammo he didn't use. I did too...

The next year it all happened again, so just what is a grabber going to do with the info on a guy like that?

I have purchased guns in more than 9 states, and so I assume i am in a lot of books. A grabber is going to find me and others with a similar name who I have never heard of and have a royal mess if this is the way they go about it.

My name so I thought wasn't very common, but I googled myself and got a real shock.

 

[JohnBT]

The NSA has satellites that take pictures of you buying a gun and do it right through the roof of the gun store. They get the serial number off the gun and copies of the paperwork, too. And they know if the store doesn't give you the correct change.

 

[Cannonball888]

I only own that one little .22 derringer pistol, they are welcome to it any time.

I hope you are good at hiding the others before a full-scale house and property search.