Night Vision!!!

SkinnyGrey

Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2010
Messages
263
Location
Seattle
I am FINALLY making the move to get night vision. I was hoping you good people could suggest the best options that are available with a budget of about $12,000. I hear some of the options are overpriced for the quality you actually get. I was hoping to get something which is on par with what the US military uses, or even better if my budget allows. I am indeed looking for two lenses, a mount and a ballistic helmet. I was looking at Armasight, but then heard they are totally overpriced and their products are typically underwhelming. I should say, I am clueless on this subject, so what I heard about Armasight might be totally erroneous. I am not here to slander anyone or any company; I just want see if I can get somewhat of a consensus of what my best options are with the budget I mentioned above. This site is such a fantastic resource and I always get such thoughtful and informative answers here, so as always…thanks for any help in advance!
 
I’ve written a lot here, but overall night vision is a lot of fun. It’s the only super power you can buy! But whatever you choose, actually get out and use it and learn its limitations and advantages. And you get to become the weirdo who your neighbors talk about when you walk your dog with NVGs.



First get training. We say it all the time with guns and people don’t do it, but spending $600 on a gun and finding out it’s not for you vs spending $10,000 on NVGs and finding it’s not for you are two very different things. Plus all the support gear - night vision is a whole new ballgame when it comes to cost.

Look at Greenline Tactical or TNVC. I think TNVC does a bit more on the west coast, so it might be easier for you to get into a class with them. There are a lot of similarities between the classes of TNVC and Greenline Tactical, but they are basically a masters level education on not only the specs of NVGs and what is important when you buy, but also how to effectively use NVGs. Both companies also offer rental gear, and sometimes you can try out different types on the same day (on my first class I swapped between a PVS-14 and a set of DTNVGs).

After the class you will be able to make decisions like: if someone is offering a set of NVGs at a fixed FOM, but two levels of resolution, as long as I’m not planning on using them with any magnification I will get the lower resolution unit because at a fixed FOM it means I will get a higher SNR and without magnification I probably won’t be able to see the difference in resolution. Or, in a high humidity environment (like Alabama) EBI is more important to me than some other factors and I want that favored when choosing tubes. Or that personally I’m ok with a few more blemishes if it means I get a better performing tube - because I’ve run drills with a blemished tube and I know it doesn’t bother me.

Not to belabor the point, but taking my first night vision class saved me over $5,000 in buying the wrong gear. Not that I was looking at bad gear to begin with, but just gear that I now know I would not have been happy with.



Anyway, back to the main point of this thread which is night vision. $12,000 is a little tight to get fully outfitted with top of the line dual tubes/ballistic helmet/etc but if you don’t include any weapon items you can probably get close.

I would recommend a set of DTNVS. They are dual tubes (not “two lenses”) with an articulating housing. The articulation allows for individual adjustment and lets you rotate one or both tubes up and out of your field of vision (they automatically turn off in that position). This lets you do a few things (like see what it’s like to be using a PVS-14) but one of the best benefits I’ve found is that if it’s raining you can stow the NVGs and have them off without the lenses being pointed straight up and gathering water. That means when you flip them down you still have a moderately clear view instead of a view of just water. It’s also helpful when in low clearance environments (like around vehicles).

PVS31s are good, but it’s much easier to adjust the diopter on DTNVS or pretty much any other NVG. IIRC the PVS-31 has swappable diopter lenses, so you have to know the adjustment you want and then order the right one. And that’s not always easy - for example the diopter setting I find works best for me is actually different based on if I’m wearing glasses or contacts. Also look into the availability of warranty work. Sometimes companies that contract with the military don’t like doing work for non-gov people.



Another plug for TNVC, but I would recommend buying from them. Really great customer service, and they’re all night vision guys with a lot of experience. So you can ask them really detailed questions and they know exactly what you’re talking about and will help guide you. Even off the wall stuff like will X, Y, and Z items work together in this specific use, and they’ll find someone who knows and has done exactly what you’re thinking about. When ordering you can even set specs for the tubes you get. So if you want a specific SNR, or EBI, or halo etc values, you can specify that.

On tubes, you’ll want white phosphor from either L3 or Elbit. Please don’t pay $12k for a Photonis… L3 is the only company that makes unfilmed tubes and they have an edge over the thinfilmed from Elbit, but they’re both good tubes and manufactures. The best would be unfilmed white phosphor from L3. In your price range you should be able to find tubes with SNRs in at least the mid-30’s.

TNVC (again, I know) has a new product called “super gain” tubes which are really cool, but they’re at the top of your budget if you’re getting dual tubes.

Avoid aviation style tubes and setups. The housings use a different mount than standard ground use NVGs and the tubes also have other things (like coatings to minimize glare from green light) which works great while piloting an aircraft but sucks if your gun’s laser or dot is green. Aviation NVGs and tubes aren’t bad, they’re just designed for a different environment and those things that are benefits in an aviation environment aren’t necessarily the best choices for normal ground use.



Other gear - don’t cheap out on the other stuff that goes into properly using your NVGs. You can buy some really awesome, top of the line tubes but if your mount or helmet doesn’t also work well, you’re going to have a bad experience and never want to actually use your NVGs.

Mount - get a Wilcox, and get a real Wilcox. Yeah they’re $500, but you know the only thing worse than spending $12,000 on night vision? Having that $12,000 set of night vision fall off your head, never to be found again, all because you wanted to save a few bucks on a mount.

Also have secondary retention on your NVGs. Some sort of cord attaching the goggles to your helmet so that in the unlikely case your expensive Wilcox mount does fail, you don’t lose your really expensive NVGs. These can be pretty inexpensive or even DIY, but you want to have this.

Ballistic helmets are a complete topic unto itself, but unless you have a specific need for a ballistic helmet (shoot houses, etc) I would recommend a bump hemet. For a good ballistic, high cut helmet expect to spend around $1,500 - $2,000. You can save money and do an ACH but you’ll want to upgrade the pads and strap (it makes a huge difference).

Having ear pro that attaches to your hemet (and can be popped on/off without removing the helmet) is very nice when taking classes. It also provides a bit more stabilization to the whole setup which can be important when walking/running.

Also get a counterweight. NVGs make a helmet very front heavy and having a counterweight at the back of your helmet makes it a lot more comfortable. It is added weight to your head/neck, but it balances everything out.

For shooting you’ll want good optics with NV settings (when you’re stacking lenses together between both the optic and the tubes, light transmission becomes more important). You’ll also be more comfortable shooting if you’re using tall mounts. It’s certainly possible to use a lower 1/3 height mount (especially with something like a 30mm tube) but it’s kind of a weird technique.

Some people like eotech for the large window, but make sure you check the specs on battery life. Personally I’m a fan of aimpoints because I know they’ll always be on when I need it.

Laser units are again, a complete topic unto themselves, but I would recommend you get a good one. A lot of people are going with pure passive shooting (no IR laser/illuminator) but I still recommend one. There are lots of techniques where they are useful. In short, when shooting close range I find it’s a lot easier and faster to use a laser than passive (though you will have a laser offset to worry about, just like height over bore offset with using normal optics at close range). Long range you can illuminate a target with the illuminator while aiming through your normal optic so your regular zero and hold overs are retained (hitting steel at 400 yards in complete darkness is an awesome feeling). You can bounce a laser/illuminator to illuminate shadows inside a window/room when you can’t see inside through just your NVGs. And you can do fun things like blind security cameras should the need arise.

I would recommend the MAWL. It has a very intuitive button layout and in some situations the civilian power MAWL can outperform an unrestricted (full power) laser made by other manufacturers.

Also, depending on your use case, be aware that LED based illuminators can often have a bit of a red glow in the visible spectrum. So if your plan is to be sneaky with one, you might not want to use a LED based illuminator.



Finally, I mentioned it before, but get training and then actually use your NVGs. There’s a lot of competence that comes from just doing little things around the house or outside while wearing NVGs that a lot of people don’t get because they only use their gear once or twice a year at the range. Things like depth perception when reaching for a door knob, or how to walk up stairs, or how to scan so you don’t wind up walking into a ditch are really important things that don’t require going to a range to practice.

If you want to see something funny, watch 40 guys in a NVG shooting class try to move around. 90% of them don’t use their NVGs often and will spend the whole night bumping into each other while they try to walk around between drills.

Another (completely separate) topic is that different materials have different properties between the visual and NIR spectrums. You can see some camo gear that looked great during the day, and it’ll just light up like a reflective vest under NVGs.

Take one night a week and spend 10 minutes outside wearing your night vision and you’ll be miles ahead of a lot of other people.
 
I’ve written a lot here, but overall night vision is a lot of fun. It’s the only super power you can buy! But whatever you choose, actually get out and use it and learn its limitations and advantages. And you get to become the weirdo who your neighbors talk about when you walk your dog with NVGs.



First get training. We say it all the time with guns and people don’t do it, but spending $600 on a gun and finding out it’s not for you vs spending $10,000 on NVGs and finding it’s not for you are two very different things. Plus all the support gear - night vision is a whole new ballgame when it comes to cost.

Look at Greenline Tactical or TNVC. I think TNVC does a bit more on the west coast, so it might be easier for you to get into a class with them. There are a lot of similarities between the classes of TNVC and Greenline Tactical, but they are basically a masters level education on not only the specs of NVGs and what is important when you buy, but also how to effectively use NVGs. Both companies also offer rental gear, and sometimes you can try out different types on the same day (on my first class I swapped between a PVS-14 and a set of DTNVGs).

After the class you will be able to make decisions like: if someone is offering a set of NVGs at a fixed FOM, but two levels of resolution, as long as I’m not planning on using them with any magnification I will get the lower resolution unit because at a fixed FOM it means I will get a higher SNR and without magnification I probably won’t be able to see the difference in resolution. Or, in a high humidity environment (like Alabama) EBI is more important to me than some other factors and I want that favored when choosing tubes. Or that personally I’m ok with a few more blemishes if it means I get a better performing tube - because I’ve run drills with a blemished tube and I know it doesn’t bother me.

Not to belabor the point, but taking my first night vision class saved me over $5,000 in buying the wrong gear. Not that I was looking at bad gear to begin with, but just gear that I now know I would not have been happy with.



Anyway, back to the main point of this thread which is night vision. $12,000 is a little tight to get fully outfitted with top of the line dual tubes/ballistic helmet/etc but if you don’t include any weapon items you can probably get close.

I would recommend a set of DTNVS. They are dual tubes (not “two lenses”) with an articulating housing. The articulation allows for individual adjustment and lets you rotate one or both tubes up and out of your field of vision (they automatically turn off in that position). This lets you do a few things (like see what it’s like to be using a PVS-14) but one of the best benefits I’ve found is that if it’s raining you can stow the NVGs and have them off without the lenses being pointed straight up and gathering water. That means when you flip them down you still have a moderately clear view instead of a view of just water. It’s also helpful when in low clearance environments (like around vehicles).

PVS31s are good, but it’s much easier to adjust the diopter on DTNVS or pretty much any other NVG. IIRC the PVS-31 has swappable diopter lenses, so you have to know the adjustment you want and then order the right one. And that’s not always easy - for example the diopter setting I find works best for me is actually different based on if I’m wearing glasses or contacts. Also look into the availability of warranty work. Sometimes companies that contract with the military don’t like doing work for non-gov people.



Another plug for TNVC, but I would recommend buying from them. Really great customer service, and they’re all night vision guys with a lot of experience. So you can ask them really detailed questions and they know exactly what you’re talking about and will help guide you. Even off the wall stuff like will X, Y, and Z items work together in this specific use, and they’ll find someone who knows and has done exactly what you’re thinking about. When ordering you can even set specs for the tubes you get. So if you want a specific SNR, or EBI, or halo etc values, you can specify that.

On tubes, you’ll want white phosphor from either L3 or Elbit. Please don’t pay $12k for a Photonis… L3 is the only company that makes unfilmed tubes and they have an edge over the thinfilmed from Elbit, but they’re both good tubes and manufactures. The best would be unfilmed white phosphor from L3. In your price range you should be able to find tubes with SNRs in at least the mid-30’s.

TNVC (again, I know) has a new product called “super gain” tubes which are really cool, but they’re at the top of your budget if you’re getting dual tubes.

Avoid aviation style tubes and setups. The housings use a different mount than standard ground use NVGs and the tubes also have other things (like coatings to minimize glare from green light) which works great while piloting an aircraft but sucks if your gun’s laser or dot is green. Aviation NVGs and tubes aren’t bad, they’re just designed for a different environment and those things that are benefits in an aviation environment aren’t necessarily the best choices for normal ground use.



Other gear - don’t cheap out on the other stuff that goes into properly using your NVGs. You can buy some really awesome, top of the line tubes but if your mount or helmet doesn’t also work well, you’re going to have a bad experience and never want to actually use your NVGs.

Mount - get a Wilcox, and get a real Wilcox. Yeah they’re $500, but you know the only thing worse than spending $12,000 on night vision? Having that $12,000 set of night vision fall off your head, never to be found again, all because you wanted to save a few bucks on a mount.

Also have secondary retention on your NVGs. Some sort of cord attaching the goggles to your helmet so that in the unlikely case your expensive Wilcox mount does fail, you don’t lose your really expensive NVGs. These can be pretty inexpensive or even DIY, but you want to have this.

Ballistic helmets are a complete topic unto itself, but unless you have a specific need for a ballistic helmet (shoot houses, etc) I would recommend a bump hemet. For a good ballistic, high cut helmet expect to spend around $1,500 - $2,000. You can save money and do an ACH but you’ll want to upgrade the pads and strap (it makes a huge difference).

Having ear pro that attaches to your hemet (and can be popped on/off without removing the helmet) is very nice when taking classes. It also provides a bit more stabilization to the whole setup which can be important when walking/running.

Also get a counterweight. NVGs make a helmet very front heavy and having a counterweight at the back of your helmet makes it a lot more comfortable. It is added weight to your head/neck, but it balances everything out.

For shooting you’ll want good optics with NV settings (when you’re stacking lenses together between both the optic and the tubes, light transmission becomes more important). You’ll also be more comfortable shooting if you’re using tall mounts. It’s certainly possible to use a lower 1/3 height mount (especially with something like a 30mm tube) but it’s kind of a weird technique.

Some people like eotech for the large window, but make sure you check the specs on battery life. Personally I’m a fan of aimpoints because I know they’ll always be on when I need it.

Laser units are again, a complete topic unto themselves, but I would recommend you get a good one. A lot of people are going with pure passive shooting (no IR laser/illuminator) but I still recommend one. There are lots of techniques where they are useful. In short, when shooting close range I find it’s a lot easier and faster to use a laser than passive (though you will have a laser offset to worry about, just like height over bore offset with using normal optics at close range). Long range you can illuminate a target with the illuminator while aiming through your normal optic so your regular zero and hold overs are retained (hitting steel at 400 yards in complete darkness is an awesome feeling). You can bounce a laser/illuminator to illuminate shadows inside a window/room when you can’t see inside through just your NVGs. And you can do fun things like blind security cameras should the need arise.

I would recommend the MAWL. It has a very intuitive button layout and in some situations the civilian power MAWL can outperform an unrestricted (full power) laser made by other manufacturers.

Also, depending on your use case, be aware that LED based illuminators can often have a bit of a red glow in the visible spectrum. So if your plan is to be sneaky with one, you might not want to use a LED based illuminator.



Finally, I mentioned it before, but get training and then actually use your NVGs. There’s a lot of competence that comes from just doing little things around the house or outside while wearing NVGs that a lot of people don’t get because they only use their gear once or twice a year at the range. Things like depth perception when reaching for a door knob, or how to walk up stairs, or how to scan so you don’t wind up walking into a ditch are really important things that don’t require going to a range to practice.

If you want to see something funny, watch 40 guys in a NVG shooting class try to move around. 90% of them don’t use their NVGs often and will spend the whole night bumping into each other while they try to walk around between drills.

Another (completely separate) topic is that different materials have different properties between the visual and NIR spectrums. You can see some camo gear that looked great during the day, and it’ll just light up like a reflective vest under NVGs.

Take one night a week and spend 10 minutes outside wearing your night vision and you’ll be miles ahead of a lot of other people.
Thank you some for yo thorough and informative response!
 
I am FINALLY making the move to get night vision. I was hoping you good people could suggest the best options that are available with a budget of about $12,000. I hear some of the options are overpriced for the quality you actually get. I was hoping to get something which is on par with what the US military uses, or even better if my budget allows. I am indeed looking for two lenses, a mount and a ballistic helmet. I was looking at Armasight, but then heard they are totally overpriced and their products are typically underwhelming. I should say, I am clueless on this subject, so what I heard about Armasight might be totally erroneous. I am not here to slander anyone or any company; I just want see if I can get somewhat of a consensus of what my best options are with the budget I mentioned above. This site is such a fantastic resource and I always get such thoughtful and informative answers here, so as always…thanks for any help in advance!

I am mostly a thermal person, but the questions will still apply.
 
I am mostly a thermal person, but the questions will still apply.

As a long time user of thermal (over 10 years) in the outdoors, it isn't like you can say you want something to what the military uses because what the military uses or has used is all over the board. I have taken guys hunting who were in Afghanistan within the last two years of hunting with me and had never seen anything weapon mounted that approached what I was used, but I was also told that what I was using was nothing compared to the vehicle mounted thermal systems. Unlike the US military that doesn't like a lot of non-military hardware in theater, several foreign militaries have allowed commercial thermals to be used by soldiers. For a while out of the Ukraine, there was a goodly number of thermal battle videos. From the displays, you can often identify the brand and sometimes the model of thermal being used. It was fun to play "ID this thermal" and noting something was a Pulsar Trail, Pulsar Bold, ATN this, AGN that, etc. and most were not high end gear, but used quite effectively.

Let's start with user-based criteria and go from there.

Let's start with weapon mounted...
What is your actual budget? How much are you willing to spend and how much are you willing to spend to knock your socks off?
In what manner will the thermal be employed? Are you thinking home defense, hunting, or what?
If for hunting, at what distances do you typically shoot? The same distance concept will apply to any application. If for home defense, what do you anticipate your distances of use to be.
What is that longest distance you need to be able to spot, to recognize, and/or identify a target? Each of these categories has their own definitions. Spotting may be as little as a single pixel being triggered. You can tell what triggered the pixel to light up as it is only a pixel, but something is there. Depending on the companies and definitions, recognition and identification are often comingled. Generally speaking, recognition is that you can tell what an animal appears to be, but are not absolutely certain. Identification is when you can identify what the animal actually is or in the case of combat, that you can tell the difference between your side and the opposition based on visual characteristics. A lot of what people do is make a recognition level determination and infer based on movement, location, etc. that a given animal is a particular species of animal. It may work very well, but technically isn't identification level stuff.
In what sort of environment are you typically operating? For all I know, you could be a security guard inside of a large, environmentally controlled warehouse or you could live in the deep swamps of Louisiana. Differences in conditions certainly may impact optics choices.
 
Thank you some for yo thorough and informative response!
No problem! If you have any questions about that stuff just let me know. And just to point out - what I wrote is a very surface level view of what goes on in those classes I mentioned. If you take them, bring a notebook. I left with almost 15 pages of notes from just the lecture portion of the class.

Because thermal was mentioned - I would not recommend relying on it as a primary/sole option for a general purpose use of seeing in the dark. Thermal is great at seeing THAT something is there, but it is not the best at seeing WHAT is there. In general, use image intensification (normal night vision) for navigation and general use, and thermal for locating potential targets.

Thermal of course relies on differences in heat to distinguish between different objects so it is good if you have everything in your environment at different temperatures, but if a door and a wall are the same temperature… and that doesn’t even get into thermal crossover (a period of time, usually twice a day, when everything is the same temperature making thermal sights significantly less effective).

Thermal also isn’t able to see through windows, so there’s that.

Something that I would recommend looking into (but it’s not in your budget) is something like an eCOTI. It is a unit that attaches to normal night vision which provides a thermal overlay. So you see both normal image intensification AND the thermal signature. It does have limitations on battery life and range, but it is very cool and is the way of the future.



A note about doing thermal or image intensification that is mounted on a weapon. There are situations where it is a good idea and is the way to go (long range NVG shooting with clip ons is a bunch of fun), but it’s important to also have night vision that is not connected to your weapon. What it seems a lot of people end up doing is using their weapon sight to search without also thinking about the fact they are pointing a weapon at whatever they’re seeing.

If you’re hunting in a closed area and know there shouldn’t be anyone else out there (or you’re in something like a war zone) maybe that’s ok, but you need to be sure to resist the temptation of seeing “something” in your thermal sight and then following a heat signature that turns into a person.

I’m not going down the rabbit hole of “what if”, but it’s something you want to keep in mind if your only way to see in the dark is attached to your rifle.

I think you’re on the right track going for helmet mounted dual tube NVGs first.
 
No problem! If you have any questions about that stuff just let me know. And just to point out - what I wrote is a very surface level view of what goes on in those classes I mentioned. If you take them, bring a notebook. I left with almost 15 pages of notes from just the lecture portion of the class.

Because thermal was mentioned - I would not recommend relying on it as a primary/sole option for a general purpose use of seeing in the dark. Thermal is great at seeing THAT something is there, but it is not the best at seeing WHAT is there. In general, use image intensification (normal night vision) for navigation and general use, and thermal for locating potential targets.

Thermal of course relies on differences in heat to distinguish between different objects so it is good if you have everything in your environment at different temperatures, but if a door and a wall are the same temperature… and that doesn’t even get into thermal crossover (a period of time, usually twice a day, when everything is the same temperature making thermal sights significantly less effective).

Thermal also isn’t able to see through windows, so there’s that.

Something that I would recommend looking into (but it’s not in your budget) is something like an eCOTI. It is a unit that attaches to normal night vision which provides a thermal overlay. So you see both normal image intensification AND the thermal signature. It does have limitations on battery life and range, but it is very cool and is the way of the future.



A note about doing thermal or image intensification that is mounted on a weapon. There are situations where it is a good idea and is the way to go (long range NVG shooting with clip ons is a bunch of fun), but it’s important to also have night vision that is not connected to your weapon. What it seems a lot of people end up doing is using their weapon sight to search without also thinking about the fact they are pointing a weapon at whatever they’re seeing.

If you’re hunting in a closed area and know there shouldn’t be anyone else out there (or you’re in something like a war zone) maybe that’s ok, but you need to be sure to resist the temptation of seeing “something” in your thermal sight and then following a heat signature that turns into a person.

I’m not going down the rabbit hole of “what if”, but it’s something you want to keep in mind if your only way to see in the dark is attached to your rifle.

I think you’re on the right track going for helmet mounted dual tube NVGs first.
Thanks again. I am trying to decide between the Elbit and the L3 Harris, both PVS 31-if I’m getting that right. I’d largely be using it for home defense and training. Do you have a recommendation between the two, or are they pretty comparable? Thanks for all your help.
 
Thanks again. I am trying to decide between the Elbit and the L3 Harris, both PVS 31-if I’m getting that right. I’d largely be using it for home defense and training. Do you have a recommendation between the two, or are they pretty comparable? Thanks for all your help.

Just looking at the tubes between L3Harris and Elbit, both make good tubes and both are military suppliers. I think Elbit has one of the more recent contracts for the Marines, and I know L3 tubes are everywhere in the military. I think L3 holds the patent on unfilmed tubes, so if you want unfilmed you have to go with L3.

Unfilmed tubes tend to have a slight advantage in specs, meaning that they are more likely to have a higher SNR (signal to noise ratio) and thin film tends to be *slightly* more durable, but if you have an unfilmed L3 tube next to a thin filmed Elbit tube and both had the same SNR and other specs, I doubt you’d be able to tell too much of a difference. And if you do something crazy that breaks an unfilmed tube, it probably would have broken a thin film tube too. If they were both the same cost I would probably lean towards L3Harris unfilmed tubes, but I have Elbit tubes in my DTNVS and have zero complaints (got an amazing deal on them too).

I highly recommend white phosphor over green phosphor though.

Make sure you are getting mil-spec tubes and not contract fallout or “civilian grade” tubes. If you really know your stuff and understand the specs and what they mean (and get to review the spec sheets, choose your exact tubes, and understand what you’re giving up) you can get good deals, but just starting out I’d recommend sticking with the Mil-spec standard.


Personally I like the DTNVS, but if you go with the BNVD I’d recommend going with a housing that is a little more civilian in nature. That’s not to say that it is lower quality, but that it has little design tweaks that may be outside of the scope of the military contract but are still desirable to end users.

For example, going back to the PVS-31 diopter issue - they are fixed diopters (I think it comes standard with -0.5) that can be swapped, but replacement sets are $500. There’s a variant of the BNVD (the BNVD-1531) that has PVS-14 type adjustable ocular lenses (among other small tweaks). Not technically a PVS-31 and it would get rejected by the military for not conforming to contract specs, but it is generally better for those of us who have to buy our own gear.



Using NVGs for home defense is pretty unlikely. I know, “never say never” and there’s probably a case where it could be useful, but I wouldn’t expect to have time to put on a helmet and NVGs if someone was kicking in the door. If I had the time I would prefer to put on armor and just use my weapon light.

That said, you’ll want to allocate some budget to getting your guns setup for use with NVGs. The aforementioned IR laser/illuminator, good optics, risers, etc. and if you’re spending $10,000+ on NVGs, you probably won’t want to cheap out on the other gear.

Get an optic for you pistol too. Shooting through NVGs with a gun that has tritium sights is certainly possible, but it’s a bit of a pain. It’s really easy if you have an optic and you can be very accurate as well.

Also practice all of your weapon manipulations (load, unload, reload, clear malfunctions, transition to secondary, draw, reholster, etc) so that you can do them blindfolded. When you’re using NVGs you can’t see any of that stuff, and even if you could it would be so out of focus as to make looking down useless. All of that stuff has to be done by feel, so do a lot of practice.
 
Just looking at the tubes between L3Harris and Elbit, both make good tubes and both are military suppliers. I think Elbit has one of the more recent contracts for the Marines, and I know L3 tubes are everywhere in the military. I think L3 holds the patent on unfilmed tubes, so if you want unfilmed you have to go with L3.

Unfilmed tubes tend to have a slight advantage in specs, meaning that they are more likely to have a higher SNR (signal to noise ratio) and thin film tends to be *slightly* more durable, but if you have an unfilmed L3 tube next to a thin filmed Elbit tube and both had the same SNR and other specs, I doubt you’d be able to tell too much of a difference. And if you do something crazy that breaks an unfilmed tube, it probably would have broken a thin film tube too. If they were both the same cost I would probably lean towards L3Harris unfilmed tubes, but I have Elbit tubes in my DTNVS and have zero complaints (got an amazing deal on them too).

I highly recommend white phosphor over green phosphor though.

Make sure you are getting mil-spec tubes and not contract fallout or “civilian grade” tubes. If you really know your stuff and understand the specs and what they mean (and get to review the spec sheets, choose your exact tubes, and understand what you’re giving up) you can get good deals, but just starting out I’d recommend sticking with the Mil-spec standard.


Personally I like the DTNVS, but if you go with the BNVD I’d recommend going with a housing that is a little more civilian in nature. That’s not to say that it is lower quality, but that it has little design tweaks that may be outside of the scope of the military contract but are still desirable to end users.

For example, going back to the PVS-31 diopter issue - they are fixed diopters (I think it comes standard with -0.5) that can be swapped, but replacement sets are $500. There’s a variant of the BNVD (the BNVD-1531) that has PVS-14 type adjustable ocular lenses (among other small tweaks). Not technically a PVS-31 and it would get rejected by the military for not conforming to contract specs, but it is generally better for those of us who have to buy our own gear.



Using NVGs for home defense is pretty unlikely. I know, “never say never” and there’s probably a case where it could be useful, but I wouldn’t expect to have time to put on a helmet and NVGs if someone was kicking in the door. If I had the time I would prefer to put on armor and just use my weapon light.

That said, you’ll want to allocate some budget to getting your guns setup for use with NVGs. The aforementioned IR laser/illuminator, good optics, risers, etc. and if you’re spending $10,000+ on NVGs, you probably won’t want to cheap out on the other gear.

Get an optic for you pistol too. Shooting through NVGs with a gun that has tritium sights is certainly possible, but it’s a bit of a pain. It’s really easy if you have an optic and you can be very accurate as well.

Also practice all of your weapon manipulations (load, unload, reload, clear malfunctions, transition to secondary, draw, reholster, etc) so that you can do them blindfolded. When you’re using NVGs you can’t see any of that stuff, and even if you could it would be so out of focus as to make looking down useless. All of that stuff has to be done by feel, so do a lot of practice.
Hey man, can’t thank you enough for your insight. I’m leaning towards Elbit, just for the price point.
 
Hey man, can’t thank you enough for your insight. I’m leaning towards Elbit, just for the price point.
No problem at all. I know what it felt like when I was just starting to look into night vision and there’s a daunting amount of information - and with the cost of this stuff it’s not very forgiving if you make a mistake.

Have fun with your new NVGs!
 
Nice responses guys!

I’ve spent more than I care to remember on Nv and thermal past decade or two. I’m on my third set of dual tube nods, had a few pvs14s, pvs27, cnvd-lr, pas23, coti, and more and I’ve got about a year on the clipIR-ELR now.

Telekinesis gave you great advice! Mine would differ only in a few small areas: I like green tubes just as much as white, and I like the anvis mounts too although in recent years the ground accessories have caught up and I’d prob buy it instead, but the aviation stuff still gets it done. And I’m not TNVCs biggest fan. They have a lot of great gear but they’re pretty much the most expensive retailer and my experience with their service was ridiculous. Yeah I’m still holding a ten year old grudge.

Just for fun I took this video tonight shooting a sub moa target at 415yd with thermal clip on in light rain.
https://rumble.com/v3wf734-415y-heated-hostage-thermal-target.html (target is head on an auto popper so it falls over when hit and then a motor puts it back up. I wired a heater to it today so it is more visible.

Anyways, after you take a class I’d look for a decent set of used nods in the $7k range on the arfcom or snipershide for sale forums, grab an old coti for $2k, and spend the rest on helmet mount and that mawl.

Be sure you want to buy too. Nv is pretty high on the “buyers remorse” list after it sits in the safe for a few months cause you can’t find a range to shoot at night. Different story if you are rural and have access to land.
 
No problem at all. I know what it felt like when I was just starting to look into night vision and there’s a daunting amount of information - and with the cost of this stuff it’s not very forgiving if you make a mistake.

Have fun with your new NVGs!
OK, so last two questions. I went with the Elbit PVS31d. Would you have a ballistic helmet and mount you’d recommend? And any other accessories I might need, or you’d suggest for the night vision and helmet? I do have a night vision compatible OTAL laser, for the record. As always, thanks in advance for any help!

Best,
FB
 
Get a good bump helmet not a ballistic one and not a cheap bike helmet.

The extra weight is significant and will lead to strain and you prob won’t want to wear after about 30 min or so. If you’re a casual user a bump helmet and nods is still comfy after a couple hours as long as your pads are set right. It will take a few nights of developing hot spots to figure out which ones need to be moved.
 
Ok, the request in the OP is for best options in NV for $12K. Best for what? Already we had replies that advise thermal is better for hunting, so either the OP should be considering thermal unless their intended use isn't hunting. Since they didn't ask about thermal, but about NV, it's a safe bet their intended use isn't about hunting, but then what is it? Walking the dog at night?
 
Ok, the request in the OP is for best options in NV for $12K. Best for what? Already we had replies that advise thermal is better for hunting, so either the OP should be considering thermal unless their intended use isn't hunting. Since they didn't ask about thermal, but about NV, it's a safe bet their intended use isn't about hunting, but then what is it? Walking the dog at night?
Thanks for your contribution. I actually just ordered the Albert PVS 31D last night. I found it for a pretty good price, and I’m gonna use the remainder of my budget on getting a helmet and amount.
 
I agree - if you’re getting a helmet and it’s sole purpose is to let you use night vision, go with a good bump helmet. A ballistic helmet is going to be a lot more expensive and heavier. If you don’t already have the strength built up from wearing other helmets (like riding with a full face motorcycle helmet for example) wearing a ballistic helmet with NVGs and counter weight is going to be pretty uncomfortable after a while. If you do decide to go with a ballistic helmet, you’ll need to build up to wearing it for long periods of time.

I would recommend Opscore or Team Wendy for helmets, both bump and ballistic. And I would do a high cut helmet.

Yes they are expensive, but you’re paying for the suspension system (pads, dial adjustments, and chin strap) and the lack of weight while retaining rigidity (for bump helmets) or lack of weight for the level of ballistic protection.

It’s hard to explain how much a good set of pads or suspension system really changes the feel of a helmet, but don’t cheap out on those. A good fit is also important in keeping your NVGs stable while doing things like walking and running.

A high cut helmet also lets you attach your ear pro to the helmet as opposed to wearing them separately. There are ways to arrange the pads so that you can wear a headband style ear pro with the helmet, but it is really nice to be able to pop off your ear pro while keeping the helmet (and NVGs) on. That not easy if your ear pro isn’t attached to your helmet.

For a mount I would recommend a Wilcox G24. Make sure you’re buying from a reputable source, there are lots of knockoffs out there.
 
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