No LSWCHP for my M37

[mtnbkr]

I fired my RSR S&W M37 for the first time last night. I had intentions of using Winchester's 158gr LSWCHP for my carry round. Well, that isn't happening. That load and my 158gr target load impact several inches high at 10yds. They're accurate, but way too high. Federal's 110gr Hydrashok load is dead on and very accurate. Unfortunately, I've read nothing but bad reports about it's performance.

Over at Stoppingpower.net, Winchester's 125gr Personal Protection load did well in gelatin tests. It penetrated about 14.75" and expanded to .625" out of a S&W 640 (2.125" barrel). An added benefit is that it's inexpensive. It's close enough in weight that it should impact pretty close to the 110s. Does anyone have any experience with this round?

There's always the Speer SB load, but it's hard to find and the bullet is heavy enough that I'm concerned it will not hit close to POA. Since this gun isn't +P rated, I don't want to fire too many +P rounds in practice.

Any other recommendations?

Chris

 

[Mal H]

I haven't had a chance to shoot mine yet. How did it kick compared to all steel J frames? With the accuracy you reported, sounds like it won't be too bad.

With the rear groove sight, what kind of sight picture are you using? You might be able to adjust for the heavy bullets just as long as you are consistent with sighting.

Since this gun isn't +P rated ...

It's my understanding that the 37-2 Bodyguard like we have is +P rated. With the rear groove sight, what kind of sight picture are you using? You might be able to adjust for the heavy bullets just as long as you are consistent with sighting.

 

[mtnbkr]

The recoil isn't bad. It's a tad heavier than with the steel guns, but not so much that it bothers me. I was rattling off shots with standard pressure 158s without a problem. I shot two hand, strong hand, and weak hand. My groups with my weak hand were large, but they were still in the 8" circle I was using as a target.

As for the +P issue, Bernie said it wasn't. His "proof" was that it lacked the reinforced lug on the left side (whatever that "protrusion" is called that keeps the cylinder in while open). In my

I was holding the front sight even with the top of the rear sight.

Adjusting my hold might work, but it was so far off, I'm not sure I can be consistent enough to make it work (especially under stress). Standard pressure 158s were 6" high, +P 158s were 4-5" high.

Otherwise, it's a sweet gun and very accurate.

Chris

 

[mtnbkr]

FWIW, Wal-Mart has the Winchester +P 125gr JHP "Personal Protection" load for $10.97/50. I bought a box, we'll see how well it works.

I also sent an email to S&W for clarification about the M37's +P status.

Chris

 

[Mal H]

His "proof" was that it lacked the reinforced lug on the left side ...

I don't see how reinforcing the cylinder stop is going to affect how the cylinder/barrel withstands pressure at all. It doesn't even come into play when firing.

Be sure to let us (me and Frank1991) know what the email response is. Curiouser and curiouser.

 

[mtnbkr]

I don't see how reinforcing the cylinder stop is going to affect how the cylinder/barrel withstands pressure at all. It doesn't even come into play when firing.

Apparently the reinforced cylinder stop is an indication of a j-mag frame.

I'll let you guys know what S&W says about the gun.

Chris

 

[Sport45]

Any other recommendations?

Could you install a different front sight?

 

[Mal H]

I think he meant ammo recommendations.

A new front sight would be ideal if the final choice of ammo is consistently high or low. However, the front sight on the M37 is forged with the barrel so it's not really replaceable. It would have to be built up to correct the shooting high problem. Doable, but probably not worth it.

 

[MCgunner]

I've tested the 125 grain Winchester +P personal protection in my Taurus. It hits very low compared to 158 grain stuff which my sites are regulated to. I have a gold wire imbedded in the front site, aim point for my 105 grain cast light load for plinking, rabbits, or what not with that gun. The 125 +P shoots to point of aim using that wire.

SO I bet it'll work well in that M37, or at least shoot to POA or close.

 

[StrikeEagle]

I had intentions of using Winchester's 158gr LSWCHP for my carry round. Well, that isn't happening. That load and my 158gr target load impact several inches high at 10yds.

Ok... I have to ask this. Isn't that good enough for defense? I use that same load in my 642, and mine shoots sorta high and to the left. But I can hit a piece of typing paper across a room. For a gun of that type, in the conditions I foresee it being used, how come that's not acceptable?

I hope I'm not steppin in something, here... but I'm genuinely curious.

StrikeEagle

 

[mtnbkr]

Ok... I have to ask this. Isn't that good enough for defense? I use that same load in my 642, and mine shoots sorta high and to the left. But I can hit a piece of typing paper across a room. For a gun of that type, in the conditions I foresee it being used, how come that's not acceptable?

It's nearly 5" high at 10yds. A couple inches is fine, but 5" means I could miss the target if I need to make a headshot (I admit, we're edging into keyboard commando space here). Anyway, I don't like the uncertainty.

SO I bet it'll work well in that M37, or at least shoot to POA or close.

That's what I'm hoping for. With 110gr being dead on or very slightly low and 158gr very high, 125gr should hit on the low end of that scale.

edit to correct figures.

Chris

 

[P95Carry]

Interesting Chris as so many revo's, snubs in particular seem to be all but designed around 158's - thus lightweight pills so often go low. 5" at 10 yards tho - yep that's excessive alright! Quite some increase in POI tho have to say.

I have thought (after Steve Camp suggested) getting some 158 Rem LSWCHP's - as he seems to like them and thought of this for my SP-101. Wonder if these comparable with Win as you used.

Be interested to see if the 125's solve your problem.

 

[MCgunner]

Personally, I want any gun I carry including a snubby to shoot dead on at 25 yards and group under 4" from sand bags at that range. My .380 don't quite make it, but it fits in a pocket, so I give it a break. That's my personal requirement. That'll get you in the torso, on the meat of a paper plate, at 25 yards. It's totally amazing what you can do with an accurate snub gun. If you practice enough with it at long range, you can hit a man size target at 100 yards at least 3 out of 5. We used to do it for fun. No, in the real world you're most likely going to be under 15 yards, but you just never know. One of the reasons I like a snub over my compact autos is the single action accuracy if I need it for longer ranges. Too, I carry mine outdoors where I might (and have) take a rabbit with a snub sometime. I've taken jacks out to 25 yards before with a snub. It ain't a huntin' gun, but it packs light when you're out with your rifle hunting other stuff and you happen on a rabbit for camp meat.

Another thing I've found out, it's totally amazing what an extra inch of barrel will do for accuracy in a J frame. I've become a 3" barrel convert. I have a little Rossi M68 that's just amazing. Cheap gun, but shoots under 3" with combat loads at 25 yards and will put wadcutters into 2" or less for five shots! I cannot do that with a 2" barrel. I'm quite sure it's the added sight radius. Next snubby I get will be with a 3" if I can find one. It'll have an alloy or titanium frame for light weight.

 

[mtnbkr]

Interesting Chris as so many revo's, snubs in particular seem to be all but designed around 158's

That's been my experience as well. It's also why I went with the 158gr LSWCHP first. The only reason I even had the 110gr load was because it was recommended at the shop as a good standard pressure defense load. I'm glad I got it. It at least gave me an idea of what weight shoots to POA in my gun.

I have thought (after Steve Camp suggested) getting some 158 Rem LSWCHP's - as he seems to like them and thought of this for my SP-101. Wonder if these comparable with Win as you used.

Well, more velocity would drive the POI down, but I can't imagine the Rem load having enough extra oomph to drive it down that far. Besides, if it did, I'd worry about shooting it in my gun, at least as long as I labor under the impression that it is NOT +P certified.

It's totally amazing what you can do with an accurate snub gun

Not to me. I've seen it firsthand.

Chris

 

[Majic]

As for the +P issue, Bernie said it wasn't. His "proof" was that it lacked the reinforced lug on the left side

The lack of that removable lug means it's a J-Magnum frame (like mentioned above) with the lug a intergal part of the frame. Being that the new frame is used to build the .357 magnum models it certainly is strong enough for a +P .38 spl. You might have to question Bernie's advise.

 

[mtnbkr]

My other source of confusion on the +P subject is that on the S&W M37 page, it specifies .38 for the caliber, but on the page for guns such as the 36LadySmith (and 442 for that matter), it actually says .38+P.

See here: http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...selected=tech&isFirearm=Y&parent_category_rn=
and here: http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...selected=tech&isFirearm=Y&parent_category_rn=

It's confusing. Does it have to actually say "+P" or is any 38special S&W revolver +P capable? Anyway, when S&W responds to my email, that'll be the final answer.

Chris

 

[Mal H]

It is confusing indeed. Check the "Overview" of the first link you supplied (same as the link I supplied in post #2). They say ".38 S&W Special +P only" for the model we have, or at least we think we have. Yet the overview for the LadySmith doesn't even mention caliber. I think we're seeing web page writers who don't know what to put in the specs or they're as confused as we are!

 

[mtnbkr]

I see that. However, I think the .38 S&W Special +P only only comment applies to the Bodyguard only and we have the Chief's Special frame (exposed hammer). Though, I don't know why they'd do that.

I think we're seeing web page writers who don't know what to put in the specs or they're as confused as we are!

That's as valid an explanation as any at this point.

Chris

 

[HSMITH]

All my snubs are old, but the Gold Dot 135 +P shoots to point of aim or a hair low. 125's are a bit lower, 158's a bit high.

The Gold Dot 135 is supposed to be one of the best loads available for snubs, you might want to try a box. I have every one of mine loaded with it after making sure POI is acceptable.

 

[Mal H]

Chris, you're right on the Chief's Special model with bobbed hammer. I started to amend my posts, but didn't bother.

All the models listed on that page imply that, "They are the original aluminum, small frame revolvers chambered in .38 S&W Special +P or .32 H&R Magnum."

The word "only" used with the Bodyguard means that model isn't made in .32, only in .38 +P.

We might as well hang it up until the email is answered. We're not going to get any facts from an ambiguously written web site.

Although I don't think S&W is currently producing any .38 Spcl models w/steel cyl/bbl that aren't +P.

 

[Johnny Guest]

Mal H wrote:

A new front sight would be ideal if the final choice of ammo is consistently high or low. However, the front sight on the M37 is forged with the barrel so it's not really replaceable. It would have to be built up to correct the shooting high problem. Doable, but probably not worth it.

I dunno - - I really like my snubs to hit dead-on at 15 to 20 yards, and then I shoot 'em at longer range to get some idea of what holdover might be required on out yonder.

As to the integral front sight fabrication - - Daunting, perhaps, but easily overcome if one is willing to pay for a bit o' custom gunsmithing. I've been sold on the 158LSWCHP+P for some years now. If my pet M37 was shooting 'em way too high, I'd take the revo and a couple of representative targets to my 'smith. I'd tell him I wanted the front sight blade replaced with one that was calculated to make it shoot at least three inches LOW at the chosen distance.

I would expect the 'smith to set everything up and mill the barrel rib down flat. He'd then mill proper size slot to hold a .10 to .125" blade, and fabricate a blade of the proper height. He'd then install it to a snug press fit, drill both rib and sight, and pin it in place. I'd blacken the result and take it to the range. Then I'd shoot three rounds at the proper range and check the result. I'd pad the jaws of a portable bench vise, and using the proper cut file, preferably a least 12" in length, I'd file and shoot, file and shoot, until I had the sight at the right height. I'd probably spend most of an afternoon getting it just so.

Then I'd take the piece back to the 'smith to have transverse serrations done, and the sight permanently blackened. I'd expect to pay the gunsmith well for his efforts, because this little gun would be a keeper. What's an extra fifty bucks for at least ten years' service? Very reasonable single-pay life insurance premium?

Regards,
Johnny

 

[Mal H]

Hmmm ... you've got me thinking, Johnny. I have a milling machine and am reasonably careful enough not to mess it up. Hmmm ...

 

[StrikeEagle]

Another thing I've found out, it's totally amazing what an extra inch of barrel will do for accuracy in a J frame. I've become a 3" barrel convert.

Agree there. That extra inch makes a HUGE difference. That's one thing I like about the old Charter Bulldog. For some reason, in spite of the substantial recoil it's easy to shoot well. In large part, I credit the 3" barrel for this.

StrikeEagle

 

[mtnbkr]

Well, the word from S&W is that the M37 IS +P RATED.

Also, they want me to send mine back for a check since it's shooting so high.

Chris

 

[Mal H]

Cool! I thought that would be the case.

Are you going to send it in?