No right to sentence someone to death

[Beren]

This got me really irritated. My childhood was in Apollo, and I was eight years old when Officer Miller was murdered in a 'kill-for-thrill.' I would never be able to serve on a jury in this case. Just thinking about it gets my hands shaking with anger.

http://post-gazette.com/pg/05207/543984.stm

Confessed cop-killer Michael Travaglia was sent back to death row this afternoon by a Westmoreland County jury.

The jurors spent more than a week hearing evidence from Travaglia's 1981 sentencing for the shooting death of Apollo policeman Leonard Miller, as well as new facts that show him to be a reformed man.

Two of the jurors wept as their verdict was read at noon today. The defendant made no comment.

Travaglia's wife and supporters wept and recited Bible verses as Travaglia was lead away in shackles.

His attorneys said they're already at work on appeal strategies. "There are two or three levels of appeal for any death sentence, and this was just the first one," said Ned Nakles Jr., his court-appointed representative.

"I'm really disappointed. I can't believe any civilized person feels we have the right to put another person to death," said Public Defender Dante Bertani, who has been on the case since 1980.

Travaglia and his friend John Lesko pleaded guilty in 1981 to four murders in a 1979 to 1980 killing spree that left four people dead and came to be known as "the kill for thrill murders."

They were sentenced to death for shooting Miller. Subsequent appeals rulings upheld their convictions but ordered the death sentence phase of the trial be re-considered by a new jury. Lesko's resentencing jury sent him back to death row nine years ago.

Although Travaglia's minister said the defendent plans to live or die according to whatever verdict was passed down today, Bertani said he's not finished fighting.

"Michael doesn't want to die. We have several good appeal issues here already. I'll see you all back here in 25 years," Bertani said.

 

[JohnBT]

"I can't believe any civilized person feels we have the right to put another person to death," said Public Defender Dante Bertani

The right? I wonder what he thinks about those who feel we have an obligation to execute them?

John

 

[Vang]

Regardless, I think we should be at least a little wary of allowing the government to kill its citizens.

 

[auschip]

Confessed cop-killer Michael Travaglia was sent back to death row this afternoon by a Westmoreland County jury.

Regardless, I think we should be at least a little wary of allowing the government to kill its citizens.

Yes, we would much rather have this guy working in the local Barnes and Noble. I'm sure it was all a misunderstanding, when he shot the policeman after speeding on the streets so he could lure him into a stop.

 

[MrTuffPaws]

Yes, we would much rather have this guy working in the local Barnes and Noble.

No, he is in prison and not the book store. Unless they have book stores in prisons now.

 

[armoredman]

Some people just make no sense to me. They'd rather let a murderer walk, than carry out the ultimate duty of the judicial system. These are the same who disarm us, tell us to dial 911, and want to legislate a world of Nerf to keep us all safe from ourselves....and will cry the loudest when that released felon is pounding them before torturing them to death....

 

[foghornl]

Hmmmmm. . .

Didn't the CONFESSED/CONVICTED felons {Trafaglia & Lesko} sentence at least 4 people to death in this so-called "Kill-for-Thrill" case?

:banghead:

 

[P95Carry]

How much has it cost over 24 years, keeping this CONFESSED cop-killer? I cannot imagine. Murder of this kind is hardly an ''oops crime'' - a ''sorry I didn't really mean it'' deal.

Leonard Miller had no options for appeals - his case is closed. Travaglia's case should have been ''closed'' long ago. I do not buy the ''reformed'' aspect either - sorry.

 

[taliv]

These are the same who disarm us, tell us to dial 911, and want to legislate a world of Nerf to keep us all safe from ourselves....and will cry the loudest when that released felon is pounding them before torturing them to death....

hold on now...

i support everyone's right to CCW and the 2A, and I also support the DP, but i have plenty of friends that have religious beliefs that are very much at odds with the DP (e.g. catholics).

I think people CAN be reformed, and CAN change. I'm not sure that matters though, as they still DESERVE the DP in cases like this. And society has an obligation to not take unnecessary risks of letting people like this free.

Still, I'd just as soon not see logical and widely held objections to the DP lumped into the DU "take away everyones guns and let all the murderers go free" moonbats boat.

 

[Rebar]

No, he is in prison and not the book store.

He's still a danger to other prisoners and guards.

 

[Cesiumsponge]

"I can't believe any civilized person feels we have the right to put another person to death," said Public Defender Dante Bertani

Hmm...though his client felt like he had the right to take away another person's life and that's a-okay? Time for the gallows.

 

[jefnvk]

In cases we know for sure they guy did it, I have no problem putting him down. I don't care if he reformed, that still doesn't excuse what he did. He killed someone for the fun of it.

Someone should have the fun of killing him, and doing the communit a service at the same time.

 

[Guns_and_Labs]

Unless they have book stores in prisons now.

I believe they're combo B&N/Starbucks.

 

[Beren]

Some other links on the case.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/trib/westmoreland/s_354747.html
(The sidebar in this link shows the four murders these people committed.)

...

"They kind of like dragged or carried Mr. Nicholls away, and I really wasn't looking ... I really didn't want to see," Rutherford said.

Nicholls was handcuffed. His feet were tied with a belt. Rutherford thought the rock was placed under his shirt.

Travaglia and Lesko came back after a few minutes.

"They were laughing and they described how Mr. Nicholls went into the water and came back up once and then went back in the water," Rutherford said.

Nicholls' death was the result of drowning, according to authorities.

Then Travaglia drove them to his parents' home in Washington Township. There they stole a .22-caliber handgun and ammunition and headed toward Apollo.

It was there they came across Miller, a police officer on the job full time for just three days.

"We're going to have some fun with this cop," Rutherford recalled hearing Travaglia say as he sped up and down Apollo's First Street in front of Miller's patrol car.

On the last pass, Travaglia swerved at Miller's car, then ran a red light and drove onto the Apollo Bridge.

Miller began to pursue them.

"That's when John told me to get down in the back seat 'cause it might turn into a shooting gallery," Rutherford said.

It did. Travaglia pulled the car over. Miller approached. Then Travaglia rolled down his window and shot Miller, Rutherford said.

Miller made a noise as if he lost the air in his lungs, Rutherford said. Then Lesko told Travaglia, "'Hit him again,'" Rutherford testified.

Travaglia fired. Then Miller shot back at the car, blasting open a passenger window.

Travaglia took off.

Miller died of gunshot wounds to the chest and abdomen.

Much of what Rutherford said about Miller's killing was corroborated by Travaglia's confession, read into evidence by retired Pittsburgh homicide Detective Ronald Freeman.

But Travaglia said he shot Miller accidentally.

"In the process of pulling the gun on him, the hammer slipped and the gun discharged," Travaglia told Freeman. "The individual next to me (Lesko) says, 'Hit him again,' and as (if by) impulse, I shot him again."

...

http://www.digitalduke.duq.edu/justice/stalled.htm

At the same time, Westmoreland County Public Defender Dante Bertani thought things were moving too fast. “It scares me to death,” he was quoted as saying. “[T]here are issues that will be made moot by execution.”

 

[Nightfall]

"I'm really disappointed. I can't believe any civilized person feels we have the right to put another person to death," said Public Defender Dante Bertani...

He lost his rights when he took the lives (and violated the rights) of his victims. Rights are a two-way contract. When you violate your end of the bargain, the contract is null and void. You can't have the benefits of rights without the responsibilities. Ergo, he murdered these individuals, he lost his rights. Since he has no rights, he's the equivalent of an animal. Since he is the equivalent of an animal and has proven, beyond any doubt, that he is capable of and willing to do these horrible acts, he will be put down like any dangerous beast. Preferably with a shotgun slug to the back of the head immediately following his trial. Much cheaper than this fancy injection or gas crap.

"Michael doesn't want to die. We have several good appeal issues here already. I'll see you all back here in 25 years," Bertani said.

Justice is "the establishment or determination of rights according to the rules of law or equity". Being equitable is "dealing fairly and equally with all concerned". Does decade after decade of being provided for at the expense of good people strike anybody as equal to multiple murders? Since we can't kill him four times, once, ASAP, strikes me as the closest we can get. This ridiculous appeal after appeal stuff needs to stop.

 

[Lemon328i]

Being pro-death penalty is not at odds with being religious. Much of the ridiculous belief come from the Western misinterpretation of "Thou Shalt Not Kill", which should have been translated from the ancient Aramaic as "Thou Shalt Not Murder". Execution of a criminal is not murder, otherwise God would have been guilty of violating a commandment when turning all of the "good" people of Sodom and Gomorrah into pillars of salt, or drowning the entire population save Noah and the animals.

While some people can certainly be rehabilitated, the vast majority of criminals are recidivist. Society would be better served by removing felons quickly and cheaply (death penalty or suicide military missions), then use the saved resources to nurture the young (who actually have a future).

 

[armoredman]

taliv, in my few years working in prisons, including supermax lock down, and Death Row, I can tell you FOR A FACT that some individulas will never ever change, no matter what. I know one who laughed at me, and stated he was on this earth to please himself, and no one else. I know why he's doing natural life, too.
rebar, you don't know how right you are, but we prefer the term corrections officer - we haven't been "guards" for some time. i know several inmates who went from a couple of years behind bars to life, and death, for actions while incarcerated. One youngster picked up 80 years for ag assault on an officer, (razor blade, tried to slash the officer's throat), from a 2 year conviction.
Guns-N-Labs, we do have libraries inside, but relax - the state didn't pay for it. All the books are donated, and inmates must apply for a time to go, and apply to borrow. Since we are required by Federal law to educate inmates to an 8th grade level, we do provide them reading material, as we have now managed to remove the legal libraries for casual access, as the expense was huge. Inmate still have access to legal materials, but we don't maintain these huge libraries in each unit anymore.

 

[JohnBT]

"I think people CAN be reformed, and CAN change."

I believe in miracles too, but it's not the way to bet your rent money.

John

 

[Rich K]

Travaglia may indeed be a reformed person.He may indeed be a "good Christian",at least in prison.Obviously the death penalty did NOT deter him from his crimes.But it is a just penalty for what he has done.And if he is in fact,a "born-again Christian",then he should also understand and accept the punishment for his sins.It never ceases to amaze me how these convicted murderers always try to escape the death penalty,but had no problem dispensing itthemselves to innocents. :banghead:

 

[Cesiumsponge]

Can someone explain to me the concept of the "born-again Christian"? I don't get how you can do whatever your heart's desire, break all the rules laid out by Christianity, then get a clean-slate after you've "been there, done that" and gotten all that exploration and curiosity satisfied. Doesn't that undermine the entire purpose of trying to live a proper life under the guidelines of a given religious belief? It seems like a concept that gives free reign until you get bored and want to settle down.

I knew a born-again lady who slept with anything and everything. After she tried everything that there was to try, she somehow became a Born-again virgin/Christian At least, I would suspect a few people who go this route do so as a free mulligan.

 

[taliv]

johnbt and armored, yeah, i agree. SOME people definitely WON'T ever change. Some people will, even if odds are strongly against it.

I respect your experience, but I also respect the opinions of people who think that it's difficult, if not impossible, to tell which group a particular individual belongs to.

Being pro-death penalty is not at odds with being religious. Much of the ridiculous belief come from the Western misinterpretation of "Thou Shalt Not Kill", which should have been translated from the ancient Aramaic as "Thou Shalt Not Murder". Execution of a criminal is not murder, otherwise God would have been guilty of violating a commandment when turning all of the "good" people of Sodom and Gomorrah into pillars of salt, or drowning the entire population save Noah and the animals.

I don't know anyone who has misinterpreted that commandment. Everyone I know who opposes the DP on religious grounds does so based on their understanding of the New Testament teachings.

here is one example of many well-reasoned voices of opposition to the DP (with no reference to the 10 Cs). Again, I personally disagree and support the DP, but it IS at odds with many religions.

 

[DeseoUnTaco]

Regardless, I think we should be at least a little wary of allowing the government to kill its citizens.

I agree. That authority is too much power for any government to have. Also, there are many pragmatic arguments against the death penalty. It mostly targets poor people who have public defenders, it costs more to execute someone than it does to keep him in prison for life, it is not an effective deterrent, it is known that guilty people are sometimes executed (including in modern times, not just in the old days), and many other reasons.

But the real reason is that the authority to put someone to death is the ultimate authority, an authority which should be left to the powers beyond this world, not to earthly governments. Even to have that on the books somehow makes a connection between our worldly government and a higher authority, and to even hint at a connection between the two is nauseating to me.

 

[Shalako]

Regardless, I think we should be at least a little wary of allowing the government to kill its citizens.

I don't agree with that representation of the situation. In this case, Society has deemed that this person deserves death. The Government has to act on Society's determination and execute the punishment.

Just as in the old days, before there was a gov't official in every community, the community, or society, had to self-govern. If one went against the will of society or social contract, society as a whole decided what the punishment was. In bad cases, it meant the death penalty. Small communities could not afford to keep a terrible criminal around forever. Justice was served swiftly.

Contrast that with today's methodology. The Govt spends our tax dollars catering to the criminals for life. Is that justice for the victim, for society, or for the criminal?

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Can someone explain to me the concept of the "born-again Christian"? I don't get how you can do whatever your heart's desire, break all the rules laid out by Christianity, then get a clean-slate after you've "been there, done that" and gotten all that exploration and curiosity satisfied.

That has to do with God's Grace and His forgiveness. Doesn't have a thing to do with worldly crimes and punishment.

The bad guy in question may be good with God, but he's still got to pay the bills he ran up with us. If he's a true, "born-again" Christian, he should be well-prepared for life after death.

 

[Vang]

I am very wary about granting "society" the ability to kill someone with the force of law.

He lost his rights when he took the lives (and violated the rights) of his victims. Rights are a two-way contract. When you violate your end of the bargain, the contract is null and void. You can't have the benefits of rights without the responsibilities. Ergo, he murdered these individuals, he lost his rights. Since he has no rights, he's the equivalent of an animal.

Your logic is the logic of statists.

Rights are inherent to our existence. No person can be stripped of his rights. If he can, his rights exist only on the whim of government. His rights are no longer rights, but priviledges that government grants out of "kindness," like a parent would a child.

The fact that people who do not deserve their rights but still have them exist is something we have to accept as a cost of having true rights.