D.B. Cooper
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That's pretty much all of her videos.
De Nile is not just a river in Egypt.
No, there's no such thing as a "national gun registry"
- Thread starter Old Dog
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Logic and rational can’t overcome firmly held beliefs.
dogtown tom
Member
Nevermind
DustyGmt
Member
Is there any risk or concern of liability on the FFL in terms of shredding vs passing along his 4473's. I imagine an FFL and/or knowledgeable person could speak on this.
Is it a better safe than sorry "pass it along to CMA" kind of deal for those required to keep a couple decades of records or is it more of a "not gonna help facilitate a potentially unlawful registry for the feds, I'm burning these" Kind of deal. I know nobody knows exactly, but it would be interesting to find out.
On a separate note and not to be unkind, but I think the federals would just be tickled if we all just kept on assuming they were as efficient and "all knowing great and powerful OZ" like figures that lots if folks mistake them to be. I doubt they are. I know of people that think if they recover a projectile, they think is like gun DNA that's just on file, like all they have to do is recover a bullet from a shooting and they can scan it into a program and get the name, number and address of the shooter
like every bullet has a corresponding serial number that matches the specific gun, not the model, THE actual gun..
Is it a better safe than sorry "pass it along to CMA" kind of deal for those required to keep a couple decades of records or is it more of a "not gonna help facilitate a potentially unlawful registry for the feds, I'm burning these" Kind of deal. I know nobody knows exactly, but it would be interesting to find out.
On a separate note and not to be unkind, but I think the federals would just be tickled if we all just kept on assuming they were as efficient and "all knowing great and powerful OZ" like figures that lots if folks mistake them to be. I doubt they are. I know of people that think if they recover a projectile, they think is like gun DNA that's just on file, like all they have to do is recover a bullet from a shooting and they can scan it into a program and get the name, number and address of the shooter
like every bullet has a corresponding serial number that matches the specific gun, not the model, THE actual gun..
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bdickens
Member
Oh, yeah. And AI is somehow magically opening up all those shipping containers and scanning all those boxes upon boxes of moldy, roach-eaten pieces of paper all by itself....
OP
OP
Old Dog
Member
Got one word for some of you: hubris.
But we should not underestimate the information on us that our government can access, without court orders, warrants or probable cause. Anything and everything you buy using a credit card, debit card or a shopper's "rewards card" -- all your purchase information can be easily retrieved and will be readily provided to law enforcement.
I hate to be the one to break it to you, but these agencies do have a lot of folks with some serious skills, especially computer skills. No, it's not like "CSI" where the forensic techs look at a fired bullet under a microscope and some dude's current photo, address and complete bio shows up a a computer screen 'cause the bullet could be matched to a specific gun registered to him (even in a state with no registration). Really, we all know that's just ludicrous.
But we should not underestimate the information on us that our government can access, without court orders, warrants or probable cause. Anything and everything you buy using a credit card, debit card or a shopper's "rewards card" -- all your purchase information can be easily retrieved and will be readily provided to law enforcement.
230RN
2A was "political" when it was first adopted.
No offense but I think some folks are missing an important point.
Regardless of what guns you bought or owned or tranferred, or bequeathed or lost in a tragic boating accident, if you are on a 4473 --that went to the government or is retained by a dealer --you personally are on a government-retrievable "collection" of information. You might not want to call that a "registry" but it sure by golly whillikers is a government-retrievable "collection" of data.
It contains your address or former address, along with other specifically-identifying information including your DOB. (Having that eliminates 364 out of 365 people.)
Anyhow, one could call it a retrievable collection of identifying personal information instead of a "data base" or "registry" or "registration," but by golly, it sure looks like *dirtywordation" to me.
You are "findable" as a gun owner, regardless of what or when you owned any "4473rd" firearm. (Excepting that 20-year provision.)
Can anyone else see that da goobermink is interested in that, not what guns you have or may have possessed? That's why I say you are what's being registered.
Paranoia? I sure as heck hope so.
Terry, 230RN
Regardless of what guns you bought or owned or tranferred, or bequeathed or lost in a tragic boating accident, if you are on a 4473 --that went to the government or is retained by a dealer --you personally are on a government-retrievable "collection" of information. You might not want to call that a "registry" but it sure by golly whillikers is a government-retrievable "collection" of data.
It contains your address or former address, along with other specifically-identifying information including your DOB. (Having that eliminates 364 out of 365 people.)
Anyhow, one could call it a retrievable collection of identifying personal information instead of a "data base" or "registry" or "registration," but by golly, it sure looks like *dirtywordation" to me.
You are "findable" as a gun owner, regardless of what or when you owned any "4473rd" firearm. (Excepting that 20-year provision.)
Can anyone else see that da goobermink is interested in that, not what guns you have or may have possessed? That's why I say you are what's being registered.
Paranoia? I sure as heck hope so.
Terry, 230RN
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All the ATF has to do is show up for an inspection and scan the records and AI would sort it.
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thump_rrr
Member
Since I am Canadian and don’t know much about how the ATF works can someone answer this.
A handgun is manufactured by company “A”.
When they sell It to distributor “B” do they fill out a 4473 or similar and keep it on their books of do they have to notify the ATF of its existence in some way?
When distributor “B” sells it to FFL “C” do they fill out a 4473 and keep it on their books or do they have to somehow notify the ATF?
When FFL “C” sells it to Citizen “D” we know they need to keep it in their books for 20 years.
My assumption is that if the above gun is found next to a body they can go to manufacturer “A” which will lead them to Distributor “B”, which will then lead them to FFL “C” and eventually to Citizen “D”.
You may not call it a registry but there is most likely a definite paper trail that will lead to the last person who jumped through all legal hoops with the exception of states that still allow FTF transactions.
A handgun is manufactured by company “A”.
When they sell It to distributor “B” do they fill out a 4473 or similar and keep it on their books of do they have to notify the ATF of its existence in some way?
When distributor “B” sells it to FFL “C” do they fill out a 4473 and keep it on their books or do they have to somehow notify the ATF?
When FFL “C” sells it to Citizen “D” we know they need to keep it in their books for 20 years.
My assumption is that if the above gun is found next to a body they can go to manufacturer “A” which will lead them to Distributor “B”, which will then lead them to FFL “C” and eventually to Citizen “D”.
You may not call it a registry but there is most likely a definite paper trail that will lead to the last person who jumped through all legal hoops with the exception of states that still allow FTF transactions.
toivo
Member
You are correct. There is a paper trail. That's not the same thing as a Federal bureaucrat being able to sit down at a keyboard and punch in your name to see what guns you have. That's what I think of when I hear the word "database."
Not quite. It can trace only to the first person who bought the gun from the FFL. Even if that person transfers the gun to someone else via an FFL, the government would not be able to find that record unless the person in question remembers what FFL was used and provides that information to them. Without that, the government wouldn't know which FFL (or which FFL's records) to go to in order to find the next owner even if the next transaction took place via an FFL.
There is a paper trail. It leads to the FIRST person who purchases from an FFL (maybe not even that if it was long enough ago, before the 20yr provision was changed to forever and the FFL in question stayed in business long enough to be able to legally destroy the records without turning them over). At that point, unless the state in question has registration, the trail ends unless that owner is obligated (or chooses) to keep and provide records on the next transfer of possession.
Which means that there is not even a partial registry. There's literally no information at all about who currently owns what, and only a partial record (that currently can't be digitally searched legally) of who purchased what at one point. Except in states who set up their own registries.
For there to be even a start at a registry, here's what would need to happen:
1. All FFLs would be required to forward 4473 information to the feds immediately.
2. The restriction preventing the ATF from compiling 4473 records into a digitally searchable database would have to be repealed.
3. The law would have to change to require ALL firearm transfers to go through FFLs.
That would create an effective registry of all guns sold in the future as long as only legal transfers took place under the new system. It still wouldn't backfill the information for all the previous sales although it would get them closer to being able to trace a gun to a current owner.
To get a complete registry, in addition to those 3 changes, the law would have to require current owners to register their firearms. With all four changes, assuming compliance, there would be a reasonably good registry of all legally transferred firearms.
Exactly. Big Data is already here. That ship has already sailed.
I have a couple of questions for the members that while not gun related, they are related to this particular subject.
How many have served in the US Military after 1992-1993?
IF you served from 1993 onward, the government has your DNA along with all of you military records on file.
I do not want an answer for the next question. But answer it to yourself.
Did you have a security clearance at anytime?
If so, the government has your life story on file.
On topic now.
It really doesn't matter if the government has all of the 4473's and FFL bound books on file, they can only trace firearms to the time it was first sold by a FFL to a private individual. After that the trail goes cold. And as mentioned. Until the changes last year, FFL's could destroy 4473's after 20 years. From 2022 onward, all 4473's must be kept by the FFL and turned in if the license is not renewed or revoked.
I didn't have any 4473s in my possession that were 20 years old or older so all went to the ATF when I gave up my Type 2 FFL years ago. And with pawn brokers, the 4473s might not be of any use since we had to run the NICS check and have individuals fill out a 4473 each time they got a firearm out of pawn.
How many have served in the US Military after 1992-1993?
IF you served from 1993 onward, the government has your DNA along with all of you military records on file.
I do not want an answer for the next question. But answer it to yourself.
Did you have a security clearance at anytime?
If so, the government has your life story on file.
On topic now.
It really doesn't matter if the government has all of the 4473's and FFL bound books on file, they can only trace firearms to the time it was first sold by a FFL to a private individual. After that the trail goes cold. And as mentioned. Until the changes last year, FFL's could destroy 4473's after 20 years. From 2022 onward, all 4473's must be kept by the FFL and turned in if the license is not renewed or revoked.
I didn't have any 4473s in my possession that were 20 years old or older so all went to the ATF when I gave up my Type 2 FFL years ago. And with pawn brokers, the 4473s might not be of any use since we had to run the NICS check and have individuals fill out a 4473 each time they got a firearm out of pawn.
Miami_JBT
Member
The government isn't tracking guns, it is tracking gun owners.
By making 4473 easily convertiable OCR PDFs, having digital 4473s from the start, requiring FFLs to keep 4473s indefinitely, and the FFL bound books. There is plenty of information right there.
Plus, the ability to scour social media, credit card purchasing history, vendor sales history, NFA records, state purchasing/background check databases, state registration/permit to own databases, and state databases for CCW permit/applications. All that information is out there for them.
The Federal Government has plenty of information to build a database about gun owners. The Feds don't care how many guns you own. They just want to know who is a gun owner, period.
They don't care if all you own is a Steven's Gill Gun that is rusted shut or if you're the largest NFA stamp holder in your state. They'll treat you the same.
ATF has already admitted that their entire system simply needs their IT guy to flick the switch to make their database a searchable registry.
GOA blew the whistle on this back in 2022.
www.scribd.com
By making 4473 easily convertiable OCR PDFs, having digital 4473s from the start, requiring FFLs to keep 4473s indefinitely, and the FFL bound books. There is plenty of information right there.
Plus, the ability to scour social media, credit card purchasing history, vendor sales history, NFA records, state purchasing/background check databases, state registration/permit to own databases, and state databases for CCW permit/applications. All that information is out there for them.
The Federal Government has plenty of information to build a database about gun owners. The Feds don't care how many guns you own. They just want to know who is a gun owner, period.
They don't care if all you own is a Steven's Gill Gun that is rusted shut or if you're the largest NFA stamp holder in your state. They'll treat you the same.
ATF has already admitted that their entire system simply needs their IT guy to flick the switch to make their database a searchable registry.
GOA blew the whistle on this back in 2022.
ATFs Illegal Gun Registry 101 | PDF | Bureau Of Alcohol | Justice
ATFs Illegal Gun Registry 101
There is lots of good information in this thread, and some not so much. I'll leave it to you to decide. We've heard for an actual FFL holder that deals with this and the ATF for a living. His insight might be worth a bit. We've covered this ground before, and reached the same results. Two camps shouting past each other to no avail. Let's call it a day.
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