Non hollow point self defense ammo.......

[Kleanbore]

Actually body tissue, organs, muscle are full of water. Even bones have some water content. The average human body is about 70mpercent water. You can see the scientific data here:
https://www.healthline.com/health/body-water-percentage. See link in post 23 to read how floured bullets work.
https://www.healthline.com/health/body-water-percentage

From none of that would anyone reasonably conclude that human tissue acts like a fluid.

Try using it to drive a turbine. Try pumping it.

 

[WheelGunMan]

The bullet will rotate less than one revolution while it is in the body.

Huh? What are you basing that answer on?

HERE'S a link that explains bullet revolution you might want to read.

 

[dweis]

An infomed judgmet can be based on facts, icluding

• The principles and properties of materials
• Velocity and twist rate
• Test results
• That the round has not been adopted for law enforcement use

Unless the bullet passes through, all of the energy of any round is "transferred" to the target.

I am reminded of another gimmick from years ago. It had been discovered that aircraft could be made to exceed Mach 1 with less thrust if the airframe geometry followed the "area rule". This meant that the diameter of the fuselage was reduced where the wings attached, to reduce the total cross sectional area.

Reloaders of rifle ammunition who are old enough may recall when some outfit came out with jacketed bullets with a shaped something like that of a Coke bottle--like the fuselages of supersonic fighters.

But the bullets did not have wings for which the cross-sectional area had to be taken into account. The idea was meaningless.

Advertising.

None of which negates the the claimed and test performance of the bullet.

 

[dweis]

From none of that would anyone reasonably conclude that human tissue acts like a fluid.

Try using it to drive a turbine. Try pumping it.

I think,you are missing the point. The bullet by high speed rotation crushes tissue, and that forces the fluids in that tissue to be moved at high pressure in a circular pattern. High pressure water tears tissue. There is plenty of water in tissue and organs because they blood enriched, and blood contains a lot of water.

 

[sgt127]

The last time I was on the east coast was years ago. I was legal to carry under LEOSA. But, I think the hollow point and Mag capacity was still in question.

I Carried a 3” Model 65 with .357 Magnum lead semi wadcutters. And a couple speedloaders.

I survived.

 

[Archie]

As should be known, I am an old guy. Full wadcutters or semi-Wadcutters do a good job of transferring the energy of the bullet to the villain.
I cannot think of a revolver that will not accept a full wadcutter shape bullet, and have used semi-wadcutters in more than one autoloader.

Drawback: Not so many of these shapes in defense level loadings are available ready made. One must be a reloader or quite friendly with a reloader.

 

[dweis]

Huh? What are you basing that answer on?

HERE'S a link that explains bullet revolution you might want to read.

Yep. A bullet reaching a muzzle velocity of 1500 FPS with a 1:10 twist would have a RPM of (1500/10) x 60, or 9000 RPM out of the muzzle. That equates to 150 RPS out of the barrel. As the velocity of the bullet drops it qwill spin at a a lower rate. Then the question becomes how long will the bullet be moving. Let’s say it in motion for ,001 second in the air and the body. It would likely at best make 1.5 revs. However, that does not mean it can’t do a heck of a lot of tissue damage in the process.

 

[Scrapiron45]

I think Elmer Keith would be laughing at this thread.

 

[Kleanbore]

Huh? What are you basing that answer on?

Twist rate.

I remembered the twist ratre for a 9mm as being slower than 1 in 10, but I see that many barrels today have i in 10 twists. That means that in every 10 inches, the bullet will revolve one time in the air. That's the maximum. Once the bullet has entered the target and has begun to do work, the angular velocity will decrease.

The number of revs in the target will depend in the average angular velocity and on the penetration depth.

Forget RPM. Think about it. If you try making a hole with a drill, a turn of one rev or thereabouts will not accomplish a thing.

 

[WrongHanded]

I think,you are missing the point. The bullet by high speed rotation crushes tissue, and that forces the fluids in that tissue to be moved at high pressure in a circular pattern. High pressure water tears tissue. There is plenty of water in tissue and organs because they blood enriched, and blood contains a lot of water.

It's actually not got anything to do with rotation. The rotation simply exists because that's how rifling stabilizes a bullet. If the Xtreme Defender projectile could remain stable without rotation, the same effect would exist.

The light weight of the projectile means it can go much faster than typical projectiles. A projectile travelling in a dense but fluid-like medium, creates pressure in front of it, as it contacts tissue of a lower density and compresses that tissue in front of it. The faster the projectile is moving the more pressure it causes. Each of the four flutes on the bullet, constrict the path of the tissue compressing on the bullet's meplat as it is forced out of the way. This constriction of the path available to the tissue greatly increases the pressure it is at when it reaches the back end of the flute. This pressure via compression cause the tissue to act like a fluid under pressure and jet out from the projectile. This jet causes damage to other adjacent tissue that does not come into direct contact with the bullet.

The bullet spinning has got absolutely nothing to do with this effect.

 

[Goosey]

This jet causes damage to other adjacent tissue that does not come into direct contact with the bullet.

This jet is CLAIMED to cause damage would be more accurate. I'm sure it beats a round nose, maybe a flat nose. I don't buy their claims it beats a hollow point.

 

[WrongHanded]

This jet is CLAIMED to cause damage would be more accurate. I'm sure it beats a round nose, maybe a flat nose. I don't buy their claims it beats a hollow point.

View attachment 1150048

Sure. So they are tested in gelatin, and it shows massive damage. So then people claim that gelatin is somehow being damaged in a way that doesn't happen in mammalian tissue. So they are tested in meat, and they produce large wounds. People then claim that dead tissue responds different than living tissue.

I suppose someone could probably test them in living tissue, and other people would claim it was an anomaly or faked. But that's just how it goes.

 

[sgt127]

I think Elmer Keith would be laughing at this thread.

I’m thinking Elmer would be nodding sagely at my post…while we shared a sip of bourbon when I posted:

“I Carried a 3” Model 65 with .357 Magnum lead semi wadcutters. And a couple speedloaders.”

 

[Goosey]

Sure. So they are tested in gelatin, and it shows massive damage. So then people claim that gelatin is somehow being damaged in a way that doesn't happen in mammalian tissue. So they are tested in meat, and they produce large wounds. People then claim that dead tissue responds different than living tissue.

I suppose someone could probably test them in living tissue, and other people would claim it was an anomaly or faked. But that's just how it goes.

People see the ballistic gelatin blocks and think the radial cracks represent "damage" to animal tissues, which they don't. Or they shoot a small pork roast or chicken and it makes a mess because the temporary cavity is huge in relation to the thawed-out target. I can believe they will cause similar kind of damage to a bullet with a flat, wide meplat and are reasonably effective. I don't believe the rest of the marketing.

 

[JDeere]

FMJ any brand or SWCs. Taking care of business for over 100 years. No need to overthink it...

 

[WrongHanded]

I can believe they will cause similar kind of damage to a bullet with a flat, wide meplat and are reasonably effective. I don't believe the rest of the marketing.

Even bullets with a wide flat meplat cause wounds larger in diameter than the bullet, if driven fast enough (ask some of the experienced big bore handgun hunters and they'll happily tell you). Due to the low sectional density of the light-for-caliber XD solids, they can be driven faster than conventional loadings, but due to the lower sectional density, will stop in a shorter distance than other non-expanding bullets, which means over penetration is less likely.

So they do the same thing to gelatin that the gelatin experts seem to think is important for a handgun bullet to do in gelatin (except for expand of course). And they do terrible things to thawed chickens. I don't see what's not good enough about them.

 

[aaaaa]

So the great state of nj will not allow hollow points for self defense.Only target practice at range farm etc .What is the best EDC ammo that will do the job non hollow point.. thanks Don

Black Hills Honeybadgers claim their "Ballistic broadheads that cut through barriers that cause hollowpoints to fail. An overall increase in depth and width of wound cavities."

 

[WisBorn]

So the great state of nj will not allow hollow points for self defense.Only target practice at range farm etc .What is the best EDC ammo that will do the job non hollow point.. thanks Don

A flat nose FMJ is probably the best bet out of semiautomatic. The flat nose creates a good wound channel. The bullets are inexpensive and don't require any specific velocity to function correctly.
A modest velocity will help reduce over penetration.
If you prefer a Semiautomatic 45acp is a decent choice for a larger hole without excessive penetration.
In a revolver 45lc or 44 special.

The best part is that FMJ bullets are reliable, inexpensive and function in most handguns.

 

[Jim Watson]

Interesting, where is the ".38 Midrange Wadcutter and SHOT PLACEMENT" party?

 

[Rule3]

So the great state of nj will not allow hollow points for self defense.Only target practice at range farm etc .What is the best EDC ammo that will do the job non hollow point.. thanks Don

It doesn't matter, Any bullet will make a hole, Forget all the pretty expanding petals and gel tests, Shot is shot!, How many people have been killed or wounded to stop fighting shot with a non hp bullet?
So much drama over fancy bullets Shot placement is where it's at!

Shoot the bad guy with a 45 acp lead bullet, what happens?

 

[WisBorn]

Interesting, where is the ".38 Midrange Wadcutter and SHOT PLACEMENT" party?

I would use that. I like to carry hardcast loads in my j frame while hiking!

 

[Kleanbore]

Sure. So they are tested in gelatin, and it shows massive damage

It would be a mistake to believe that the visible disruption in calibrated ballistic gel indicates "massive damage". Objective testers have said that the permanent wound channel, for what that might be worth, is comparable to that of a solid. Lehigh claims that is is "often larger'" than that of a JHP, but they provide no data to support that.

This is not new ground for us here. It would behoove people to review the old threads.

If I lived in New Jersey and ere allowed to carry, I would choose Hornady loads with polymer tips--as I do now.

 

[WrongHanded]

It would be a mistake to believe that the visible disruption in calibrated ballistic gel indicates "massive damage". Objective testers have said that the permanent wound channel, for what that might be worth, is comparable to that of a solid. Lehigh claims that is is "often larger'" than that of a JHP, but they provide no data to support that.

This is not new ground for us here. It would behoove people to review the old threads.

If I lived in New Jersey and ere allowed to carry, I would choose Hornady loads with polymer tips--as I do now.

Sure, "objective testers". You might get on YouTube and do a quick search to find some footage that would be very much at odds with the results claimed by those "objective testers". But you do as you wish, others may also do as they wish. I'm not going to bother trying to change your mind.

 

[WrongHanded]

For those who cannot visualize the concept I explained up thread about how the XD bullets work, here's a quick video from Lehigh.

 

[Kleanbore]

For those who cannot visualize the concept I explained up thread about how the XD bullets work, here's a quick video from Lehigh.

Interesting graphics. illustrative of nothing real. Advertising--what would we expect?