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Non NFA 20 gauge pistol?

Discussion in 'Legal' started by triggerman762, Nov 27, 2018.

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  1. triggerman762

    triggerman762 Member

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    I have been reading up on firearm law for a long time and have been a gunsmith for about a year and some change so i like to think i have a solid grasp on the laws. I was thinking recently about a way to build a "sawed off shotgun" (pistol grip, no stock) that would not need a tax stamp. i think i found a way, if i build myself a virgin receiver and make (or pay someone to make) a rifled barrel for it. it wouldn't fit the description of an SBS because it has no stock, and it wouldn't fit the description of an AOW because it has a rifled barrel. but it could still be classified as a DD. UNLESS i could get a sporting purpose exemption. since the intention of the gun would be to be used as last ditch for boar or large game hunting. (i conceived this idea after i got knocked on my *** by a wild hog. i shot it with a .44 but it still had enough in it to make it too me and knock me off my feet. i want something that will drop it immediately). so my question is does this seem like its worth it to bring to the ATF or is there something I'm missing that would make it a waste of time
     
  2. LRDGCO

    LRDGCO member

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    I am not in a position to offer legal advice, which is what you require at this point. Whether your idea is viable or not, I cannot say, but your first port of call should be with an attorney who does this sort of work. Going straight to the BATFE may get you an answer, but it may not be the answer that you want. And once you have had that answer, it is on the record.

    If I may, I would suggest that your request should be for references to attorneys with expertise in this area. Getting an opinion from one on your concept provides you with continued options to 1) pursue with the agency 2) amend the concept and pursue 3) cease the effort.

    As to the efficacy of the concept, the immediate cessation of aggression by hog requires destruction of the nervous system (ie paralysis or brain death) or a debilitating wound that ends the possibility of forward movement, broken shoulder etc.. Neither will stop momentum. 250 lbs of dead hog will cause harm if momentum carries it into you. While a 62 caliber projectile is certainly a powerful deterrent, it does not necessarily do so much more effectively than say a 45 cal projectile of sufficient weight. In other words, a 'howdah' pistol chambered in 45-70 with 500 grain hard cast lead bullets will head to tail a hog and can be made as a pistol. I am not convinced that such a pistol would be more effective than a 44 mag with heavy for caliber lead bullets, but it will have a marketing hook, and it avoids the issues raised with the 20 ga concept. Best of luck with your venture.
     
  3. Texas10mm

    Texas10mm Member

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    Wouldn't a rifled barrel turn it into a SBR?

    The Mossberg Shockwave is where you should be looking.
     
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  4. triggerman762

    triggerman762 Member

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    nope. if it never had a stock it cant be an SBR. also I've seen the shockwave but its just not as interesting as a "sawed off" style shotgun. it wouldn't really work for my intended purpose either
     
  5. triggerman762

    triggerman762 Member

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    thanks! your right i should go to a lawyer. i wanted to try and do it myself because i cant afford lawyers fees but i think ill wait and see if i can find someone whos not too expensive
     
  6. entropy

    entropy Member

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    Get a BP 20 ga Howdah pistol. It should be more than adequate for your needs, and no red tape or questionable legality.
     
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  7. triggerman762

    triggerman762 Member

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    wish i could but i dont live in a free state. Illinois constitution says blackpowder guns are firearms and the banned short barreled shotguns
     
  8. entropy

    entropy Member

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    How about a Heizer .223 PAR?
     
  9. Blkhrt13

    Blkhrt13 Member

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    Seems like a lot of yellow tape. Maybe even red. I dig the idea because it reminds me of the old savage automotive shotgun. Prolly exactly why they made sawed off laws to begin with.
     
  10. Texas10mm

    Texas10mm Member

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    The NFA of '34 has taxes on short barreled rifles and short barreled shotguns because originally handguns were going to be NFA items. The legislators figured out if they put a $200 tax on a $30 handgun that people would simply cut down rifles and shotguns instead of paying the tax.

    Handguns got removed from the NFA due to the NRA but the short barreled rifles and shotguns were left in.
     
  11. LRDGCO

    LRDGCO member

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    Thanks for that. Did not know that. It's exactly the sort of logic we see in the feces throwing monkey pit known as Congress even today.
     
  12. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    The original draft of the NFA would have taxed all concealable firearms, leaving only rifles and shotguns w/18''bbl and 26" OAL. (bbl length on rifles wasn't reduced to 16" until later) Handguns were removed before passage due to S&W and Colt telling their Congressman they would go belly up. Cutting a rifle or shotgun down to less than legal length still requires payment of tax and an approved Form 1.
     
  13. Sovblocgunfan

    Sovblocgunfan Member

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    You are thinking of the Ithaca AutoBurglar. That gun was affected by NFA ‘34 because it was a cutdown modified shotgun with smooth-bore tubes.
     
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  14. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    No, it was not cut down, it was made as a shot pistol... which is also regulated.
     
  15. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    Your logic is sound, the ears or eyes it will encounter won’t be receptive though. Sounds good but they are still trying to call bump fire stocks machineguns. That makes the UNLESS part not very likely. How many Exemptions have been given since the law was passed? What makes a device qualified for one?

    You should remember the otherwise legal shotguns they turned into “destructive devices” like the street sweeper and USAS-12, just because they felt like it.

    I guess you should be happy that you can get a .410 pistol, might be a better choice than a 20 ga muzzle loader. What could you do with a 20ga shorty with a rifled barrel that you couldn’t do with some of the more powerful pistol/revolver rounds out there?
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2018
  16. Blkhrt13

    Blkhrt13 Member

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    They sure are good looking. Haven’t seen pics of one in a while.
     
  17. Dan Forrester

    Dan Forrester Member

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    I think the way around all this for you is to make a 12ga flare gun clearly engraved “for flares only”. Make it with a shorter chamber like 2” similar to the plastic flare guns.

    Since it is designed to be a signaling device it isn’t even considered a gun. If someone puts a Aguila mini shell in it it would hold up just fine. Using the same logic as the arm brace the ATF should be perfectly fine with this.

    Dan
     
  18. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    Thats not a way around, just one way to violate the law.

    https://www.atf.gov/file/55446/download

    They have already spoken of the subject of flare guns spitting out something other than a flare.

    https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/o...etter-flare-inserts-any-other-weapon/download

    Before trying to find a way “around” and subjecting myself to...

    I would call the NFA Branch (304)-616-4500 and figure out how to obtain written approval of the actions before I take them.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2018
  19. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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  20. George P

    George P Member

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    Or the Remington version
     
  21. Dan Forrester

    Dan Forrester Member

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    jmorris: I guess my thinking was that it wouldn’t be a SBS/AOW/DD since it wasn’t designed to fire lead shot. It was designed to be a sturdy flare gun for people who want something a little nicer than the cheap orange plastic ones. The fact that it can fire lead shot doesn't change the stated intent of the device. As far as my understanding goes this is the exact same ATF logic that brought us the Sig Brace.

    I guess what I didn’t realize was the ATF already had published their opinions on this subject as per your links. It seems the sig brace was uncharted territory whereas the ATF has already ruled on flare guns.

    I appreciate the links!

    Dan
     
  22. milemaker13

    milemaker13 Member

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    Is that true? Huh... I did not know that. I thought BP firearms were exempt from these laws.
     
  23. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    State law more repressive than Federal
     
  24. Neo-Luddite

    Neo-Luddite Member

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    Not in IL. In fact, even airguns over ,177 are legally firearms in IL. It is true this gets ignored quite often for mail order sales. SBS are illegal altogether but SBRs and AOWs are possbile, as are non-explosive DDs. Had not considered myself that a BP SBS is likely illegal in IL.
     
  25. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    Interesting, I had missed that one.

    The Contender did in 357, 44 and 45LC/.410.

    Unfortunately that’s not how it works. Take a shoe string and run it like this,

    5D681ECA-57C4-4C94-A8CF-69FE619E7BED.jpeg

    Without the proper FFL/SOT etc and you have illegally “manufactured” a machinegun despite the fact it was originally designed and intended to keep shoes on your feet.
     
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