Non tactical handgunning relevance?

[Puncha]

I was at the range today and while cleaning my rented Colt Diamondback revolver after a PPC training session, I was shooting the breeze with some ISSF shooters (one guy did .22 rapid fire pistol, another shot .22 standard pistol and one particular lady was trying 25 meter centrefire pistol).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Pistol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/25_m_Center-Fire_Pistol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/25_m_Rapid_Fire_Pistol

When the topic of self defense came up they all unanimously agreed that in the event of a home invasion, civil disturbance or car jacking they would all be confident of prevailing against their attackers using their olympic precision pistols and ISSF skill sets. When I mentioned that self defense skills might be better cultivated in IPSC matches, they replied that they trained to acquire precision marksmanship and that in all their events, there was a high stress rapid fire component which implied that they could place multiple shots into their targets under stress and on demand.

What do you guys think? Are they deceiving themselves? Or do they actually stand a chance when SHTF?

Lastly, how well does PPC serve as defensive training?

 

[sacp81170a]

they trained to acquire precision marksmanship and that in all their events, there was a high stress rapid fire component which implied that they could place multiple shots into their targets under stress and on demand.

Any time someone competes at a high level they have to develop the ability to handle stress. We talked about stress inoculation in another thread. That's great, but the real test is some kind of FoF training where you can develop the reactions and skills (which are very different from target shooting events) that will keep you alive in a real fight. There's no way of knowing for any of these folks whether they'll react properly in a real CQB situation or not. I prefer to test myself and have a better idea.

I would also contend that IPSC shooting is a little closer than ISSF to real world, but it also ingrains some habits that are not conducive to survival. I will never question the skill of someone who puts pistol shot after shot into a 10cm bullseye at 25 meters, I would just question how well that skill translates to someone being up in your face trying to kill you.

 

[1911 guy]

Gunhandling, accuracy and tactics are all needed. None are the same as the others.

 

[Joe Demko]

They are better prepared than the huge number of gun owners who don't practice at all.

 

[MostlyGenius]

Many martial artists are confident that they have the skill sets to prevail in self-defense encounters too. In the case of many martial artists that I have spoken to, they only imagine a very small subset of the full spectrum of potential threats. This is the same thing.

 

[Jeff White]

When I mentioned that self defense skills might be better cultivated in IPSC matches,

Self defense skills are acquired by training for self defense. IPSC matches have no more relevance to self defense then bullseye shooting or any other discipline you can name. Games are games. You can practice some techniques shooting IPSC, but then again you can practice some techniques shooting bullseye.

Sweat and hard work training to fight is how you get self defense skills.

Jeff

 

[TexasRifleman]

Sweat and hard work training to fight is how you get self defense skills.

Very true.

The problem with IPSC and IDPA etc is that they are games, and human nature is to begin to figure out how to beat the game.

I shot IPSC for many many years, I was a B class shooter. Not expert but not bad. I found that over time I paid less and less attention to anything except "gaming" the game. An extra step here, a saved reload here. Reading the qualifier stages months before and memorizing every movement I'd make.

That's not tactical, that's ballet.

I never once ran into any bad guys while wearing my Ernie Hill Speedleather (wow that makes me old, most people won't even know who he is lol)

 

[sniper5]

I'm with Joe Demko.

Anyone who is thoroughly comfortable with a tool is going to be formidable with that tool. I would not want to box with a boxer, or get in a hammer fight with a carpenter, or go up against a baseball player with a baseball bat. Most any craft is developed by turning the tools into a part of your body so you can use it instinctively and reflexively with very little conscious thought. I would never underestimate the potential of this.

As I recall hearing Jeff Cooper say once " You don't fight with a gun, you fight with your mind. The gun is just the cutting edge."

 

[Jenrick]

The goal of a social encounter is to:

A) Survive
B) Stop the threat

Goal A is usually accomplished by performing goal B. The method of achieving Goal B in a gun fight is normally putting rounds on target in a short time frame. A .22lr placed accurately will put a man down in one round (heck the African big five have been taken with a .22lr) The inability to place rounds on target within the necessary time frame will get you killed.

The shooting disciplines you mentioned all have time limits, and all have rather stringent (compared to IPSC/USPA/IDPA etc) accuracy requirements. So any person competent to shoot those sports well can put rounds on target. The issue of time becomes a factor next. This is where IPSC/USPA/IDPA have an advantage as they stress the time factor. However being able to put rounds down range quickly does nothing if the rounds don't hit anything.

I'd say being able to hit what you aim at is the important part. You can work on the rest later, and if you're a good enough shot you may not even need followup rounds.

PPC isn't a bad self defense course, but like the other sports mentioned it's geared primarily towards the accuracy side of the equation. Shooting the course with a 6" bull barrel'd N frame revolver using light .38 spcl target loads is a bit different then a 4" k frame .38 spcl +P or a 2.5" .357.

-Jenrick

 

[Boris Barowski]

shooting under stress during a match where the worst that can happen is that you lose ranking points etc is in my opinion very different than the stress of a self defence situation.

 

[FourNineFoxtrot]

I know zip about competition pistol shooting, but one thing I do know:

Any training is better than no training, if for no other reason than it gives a degree of confidence. Being trained to do something will at least help keep you from freezing up.

Adaptation is the law of battle, any battle. You can't train for every scenario, or even very many. You develop skills, and the readiness to adapt those skills. Competition shooting at least develops speed and accuracy while handling a firearm. In a self-defense situation, variables such as caliber, distance, and stress will change, but there is at least a core of training with which to work.

 

[Deanimator]

ANY shooting skill is better than none.

A guy with a Hammerli 208S and years of experience is a lot harder to victimize than a guy who dials 911 and expects a matter transporter to beam a cop between him and danger.

You don't need to be Bill Jordan to defend yourself.

You need to have reasonable skill and common sense. A LOT of shooting skill and some common sense is even better.

 

[Deanimator]

The shooting disciplines you mentioned all have time limits, and all have rather stringent (compared to IPSC/USPA/IDPA etc) accuracy requirements. So any person competent to shoot those sports well can put rounds on target. The issue of time becomes a factor next. This is where IPSC/USPA/IDPA have an advantage as they stress the time factor. However being able to put rounds down range quickly does nothing if the rounds don't hit anything.

That's one thing that a lot of people either forget or don't seem to have ever known.

I could shoot a group in a 50' bullseye match that would send me into a depression, that on the other hand in IPSC/IDPA would be considered astonishing accuracy, and with one hand to boot.

Moderate skill and LOT of common sense will keep you alive.

 

[Old Fuff]

Been there, done that... Meaning the international shooting games and defensive shooting training - but not so much combat games as such.

If you agree that bullet placement is critical, and so is speed in the context of doing fast repeat shots that are accurate, the ISSF games can be great basic training. But with the exception of Center Fire they are shot with .22 caliber handguns. Center Fire involves cartridges no larger then .38/9mm, and the recoil is very light in the popular loads. Somewhat the same can be said about PPC.

So the sporting games have limited relevance to real life defensive situations, and are not a valid substitute for defensive training. But any learned shooting skill will in some way be useful to some degree, regardless of how it’s obtained.

 

[Puncha]

Saw the ISSF guys today...

....I went down to the range to meet a prospective buyer of a rifle I own. After I concluded the deal, I cleaned out my on-site locker and took out several mouldy (high humidity where I live) IDPA targets to throw away. On my way to the dumpster, I chanced upon the 3 aftermentioned ISSF people as they were about to finish their training for the day.

After exchanging routine pleasantries, they kindly requested to have my targets that I was about to throw away. (It seems that they had an mild argument with the testosterone addled IPSC folks earlier on and the IPSC people said that ISSF events had ZERO practical revelance.) In essence, the ISSF shooters wanted to prove to themselves that they had good self preservation abilities.

As I watched, the 2 guys and 1 gal shot sighting rounds at various distances using their pardini, walther and hammerli guns. They then proceeded to do the following:

1) Rapid fire guy: In a simulation of a riot confrontation, he held his .22LR pistol loosely by his side and after the signal was given, proceeded to execute 5 headshots in 3.5 seconds at 15 yards, one handed.
2) Standard pistol guy: Did an "el presidente" at 20 yards in 4 seconds. 6 .22LR shots fired. All 3 targets double tapped where the heart should be.
3) Centre fire gal: Car jacking situation. From seated position, using her unsupported weak hand shooting to the side, she executed a perfect mozambique drill using .32 S&W long on a target 8 yards away in 2.5 seconds. The head shot was to the snot locker.

I don't think it's a good idea to get into a gun fight with the folks from the national olympic sports shooting team.

 

[Clipper]

The incredible arrogance I find on this forum is the only reason I read it...The idea that 'If you don't train exactly as I do you ain't s***' just makes me shake my head. You can train every day if you want, but if you don't have it between the ears, it's all a waste of time.

 

[.455_Hunter]

I don't think it's a good idea to get into a gun fight with the folks from the national olympic sports shooting team.

Great story Puncha!

My dad and I once went to a "Schultzen Fest" sponsored by Coors and held at the old Golden Gun Club just north of Golden. After watching bullseye after bullseye after bullseye fired by various .33/40 and 8.15 mm rifles, my dad summed it up best by saying "you would not want one of these guys mad at you..."

I bet the ISSF guys can also shoot very well with service grade weapons!

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

What do you guys think? Are they deceiving themselves? Or do they actually stand a chance when SHTF?

I think they would stand a better chance, but mere proficiency with a firearm is far from the only component here. For starters, paper targets don't shoot back.

 

[mljdeckard]

Any competitive shooting develops muscle memory and hammers skills into the subconscious. This means, that even when your head is freaking out, your hands and eyes still know what they are supposed to do.

Some good pre-planning and training would still be important, but the shooting skill is the basis for a good plan.

 

[Liko81]

They may have accuracy under rapid fire with a .22, but I'll tell ya a .22 is not a 9mm or a .45.

I definitely agree that they are better able to handle themselves in a real fight than someone who takes their gun to the range once a month and puts a few downrange to make sure he can still aim. However, the bad guy is not going to have a big red circle on his chest and stand there, gun pointed, while you take careful aim. Even IPSC is not training for the real world; the targets don't move, don't shoot back, and you will not always have cover from which to address. There really is no training that can fully prepare you for the first time you will pull your gun and pull the trigger with the intention of ending someone's life. Anyone who is cavalier about such an occurrence is one of three things: someone who has not yet encountered it, someone who is putting up a devil-may-care front to deal with it, or a sociopath/psychopath.

Still, the only way to know what a firefight really will be and how you will acquit yourself in one is to be in one, which is something I would not wish on anyone. Any practice you get with a firearm will help prepare you to use it. Even a reasonable facsimile is good; even paintball teaches basic cover and suppress tactics and an air rifle or BB pistol can show you what you're doing wrong when your big angry .308 hunting rifle or .45 CCW covers your mistakes in a huge bang and kick.

 

[ozwyn]

I seem to recall a story around the fall of the iron curtain regarding an olympic shooting team and a gunfight in a graveyard....

Also, a lot of national shooting teams often have military vets or active duty military members (dependign on country), which means they may have some tactical background with a whole heck of a lot of general shooting experience behind them.

if they can keep their cool while being shot AT, then they will be pretty dangerous.

 

[Geno]

In the infamous, scripted words of Bruce Lee, "Boards don't hit back!" Too, targets don't return fire, nor in most cases, do they duck behind cover, etc.

JMHO

Doc2005

 

[NASCAR_MAN]

I know a 70-year-old cowboy who is the winner of many a gunfight in his Vietnam days - and a couple as a local businessman. He thinks he can "get 'er done" with a semi-auto, bull-barreled 22 Long Rifle. As he says..."I will hit!" I've seen him shoot. I believe him.

He's nothing fancy...just a quick point and very accurate. And...he's prevails.

So, yeah...I think any shooting is good practice - some more than others. Nevertheless...I agree with the cowboy's sentiment, "You must hit". (and you must Want to hit)

 

[BobbyQuickdraw]

A lot of you seem to be preparing for long, drawn out gun battles that involve running to and from cover, engaging multiple targets on the fly, etc. That's great if we're ever invaded en masse.

But for the statistically relevant encounter, the odds are that you aren't running, aren't facing an elite squad of fighters, and you're not in the middle of downtown Mozambique.

You're probably in your home or walking home and between 1 and 3 people start trouble. These Olympic level shooters, even firing .22, are very dangerous people. Someone said something like "even though they're accurate, a .22 isn't a 9mm or a .45."

Well a .45 to the shoulder is less effective then a .22 to the forehead. These people really know how to shoot and they can shoot fast and accurate. Put a 9mm in their hand and they'll shoot very well still.

Don't take anything away from these people because they don't like the same competition as you do. They're great shooters and that's what counts.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Ending a Life?

. . . pull the trigger with the intention of ending someone's life.

That's an interesting characterization.

I don't think that would be foremost in my mind.

I'm more interested in stopping a threat.

If the threat is stopped, then the objective is achieved, and whether he lives or dies becomes a secondary concern.

I'm only stopping the threat.