Non-US residents allowed to shoot at range?

[davidjblythe]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I have a friend who is here for a year (Ukranian Military officer). He is very interested in shooting some of my firearms. Just to be safe, I called Shoot Straight, a local gun store and indoor rifle range, and spoke to "Mack" about him coming to shoot with me. I pay the yearly fee to use the range and figured that this would be no problem. Here is the reply from Mack:

M: "He can't shoot."
"Why?"
M: "It's against federal law."
"So non-US Residents are not allowed to handle and shoot firearms?"
M: "That is correct."
"Thanks... I'm going to look up that law right now."

What is the policy of foreign guests at a shooting range? I understand that there may a more restrictive store policy for liability reasons, but "Mack" clearly stated that it is a FEDERAL law that prohibits my Ukranian friend from shooting with me.

 

[scout26]

People come from outside the US to hunt all the time. The only Federal law about non-US residents is IRT them purchasing firearms.

 

[RNB65]

"Mack" is an idiot.

No such law. Perfectly legal for a non-resident to shoot.

Go to the range and don't tell them. Unless they check ID's on every person, what they don't know won't hurt their poor, ignorant heads.

 

[Robby]

Sounds like you need to talk to the owners of the place. If Mack is the owner, he needs to check out restrictions more.

But I would suggest you check out, with State, and Fed sites to see if there is some restriction.

 

[bubba1]

Nonimmigrant aliens are prohibited from purchasing or possessing firearms or ammunition - 18 USC 922(g) and (y) - unless the individual meets one of the listed exceptions such as having a hunting permit.

 

[AndyC]

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=browse_usc&docid=Cite:+18USC922

The relevant sub-section is (y)2:

(y) Provisions Relating to Aliens Admitted Under Nonimmigrant
Visas.--

(2) Exceptions.--Subsections (d)(5)(B), (g)(5)(B), and
(s)(3)(B)(v)(II) do not apply to any alien who has been lawfully
admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa, if that
alien is--
(A) admitted to the United States for lawful hunting or
sporting purposes or is in possession of a hunting license or
permit lawfully issued in the United States;
(B) an official representative of a foreign government who
is--
(i) accredited to the United States Government or the
Government's mission to an international organization having
its headquarters in the United States; or
(ii) en route to or from another country to which that
alien is accredited;

(C) an official of a foreign government or a distinguished
foreign visitor who has been so designated by the Department of
State; or
(D) a foreign law enforcement officer of a friendly foreign
government entering the United States on official law
enforcement business.

Nothing to do with simply shooting at a range - the law is about ownership.

 

[RNB65]

Nonimmigrant aliens are prohibited from purchasing or possessing firearms or ammunition

Shooting someone else's firearm in their presence is neither purchasing nor possessing. It's perfectly legal for a nonresident to shoot someone else's gun in their presence. Just like I can go to the range and rent a machine gun without having to fill out an ATF Form 4.

 

[bubba1]

Shooting someone else's firearm in their presence is neither purchasing nor possessing.

Depends on the legal definition of "possession" being applied - if you have a reference or case law on this point, I'd like to see it. This question has been on my list of stuff to ask a firearms lawyer in the near future (relatives coming to visit).

 

[AndyC]

Also, from ATF: http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/022002form6updates.htm

In 1998, the United States enacted a law that generally makes it unlawful for nonimmigrant aliens to possess and receive firearms and ammunition in the United States. There are exceptions to this prohibition, including (1) an exception for nonimmigrant aliens who possess a valid hunting license or permit lawfully issued in the United States and (2) an exception for nonimmigrant aliens entering the United Sates to participate in a competitive target shooting event or to display firearms at a sports or hunting trade show, sponsored by a national, State, or local firearms trade organization, devoted to the competitive use or other sporting use of firearms. The other exceptions are less common – they are for specific categories of persons, such as law enforcement officers entering the United States on official law enforcement business.

 

[AndyC]

Another from the ATF FAQs - http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/form6updatesfaqs.htm

35. Q. I'm a nonimmigrant alien who is coming to the United States for two weeks to go hunting. Can I rent a firearm in the United States to use on this trip? What about if I want to go to a shooting range one day - can I rent a firearm there as well?

A. As long as you possess a valid hunting license from a State within the United States, you may rent firearms to hunt and to use at a shooting range. If you do not have the hunting license, your possession of the firearms and ammunition will be unlawful. The hunting license does NOT have to be from the State where you will be possessing the guns and ammunition.

 

[davidjblythe]

This person would qualify as a distinguished visitor per the DOS, but I think that the rules are clear:

He is allowed to shoot my weapons with my supervision. What can I go into the range with as evidence? I can't say that he is plain wrong... but I'm afraid that if I bring in the letter of the law, he will have another 'interpretation' of it.

 

[AndyC]

Print out the ATF FAQs and highlight the relevant sections, along with the URL so the range-owner can check for himself before your visitor arrives (can't blame the guy for being careful).

 

[JB Books]

I'd have your friend purchase a hunting license. Believe it or not, some states require you to have a hunting license to shoot at state owned ranges (ie. a rifle or pistol range on a game refuge).

 

[Wes Janson]

Sorry, but it's a federal crime for your friend to possess a firearm or any ammunition unless he holds a hunter's license (or qualifies for one of the exemptions, ie diplomat, foreign law enforcement, sporting competition, etc). Call up the ATF, and they'll tell you the exact same thing.

It's a law that virtually no one knows about, but which DOES exist and CAN be enforced by the ATF/FBI.

If you don't believe me, read the following news articles:

http://www.abcactionnews.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=3bd47796-de9d-4250-a01c-45fbc8a63e25

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/myfox/...n=3&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.2.1

As interpreted by the government, "possession" is effectively defined as physical contact with a firearm or ammunition. If someone is a tourist, doesn't qualify for a diplomatic/police/sporting exemption, and doesn't have a US state-issued hunting permit, then it's a federal felony for them to pick up, touch, shoot, handle, etc any firearm or ammunition.


If this pisses you off, then write letters to your congressmen, or to the ATF, or FBI, or whoever you can find who'll listen. As it stands though, by the letter of the law, thousands of tourists commit felonies every year, and thousands of law-abiding gun owners aid them in the commission of such.

 

[AndyC]

So, we're all agreed - he's fine if he buys a hunting license

 

[Harry Paget Flashman]

I have seen foreign nationals shoot at our range. Most are military who are training at NAS Pensacola. It has never been a problem. They wear their membership cards on their lapels just like us.

 

[Wes Janson]

So, we're all agreed - he's fine if he buys a hunting license

Except that I believe it would be necessary for the visitor to have completed a hunter's safety course before getting a permit. Could be wrong on that one, but I don't think you can just buy one outright.

I have seen foreign nationals shoot at our range. Most are military who are training at NAS Pensacola. It has never been a problem. They wear their membership cards on their lapels just like us.

Military personnel are generally going to be exempt from that law, I believe. And just because you see someone engaged in an activity does not mean that said activity is legal.

 

[awkx]

18 USC 922(g)(5)(B) says:

It shall be unlawful for any person ... who, being an alien, except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa ... to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.

Or simply put, it says that a non-immigrant alien can't "possess" or "receive" a firearm. Both terms seem to denote ownership or unsupervised control of the firearm, so simply shooting a gun under its owner's direct supervision might be in compliance with the statute, depending on how "possess" is interpreted.

Anyhow, I have severe doubts about whether 922(g)(5)(B) is valid law after the decision in Heller v. DC. If non-immigrant aliens are part of "the people" referred to by the Fourth Amendment, then they should also be part of "the people" referred to by the Second.

 

[NC Dave]

I've seen businessmen from the UK come and rent guns at a local range many, many times. It is perfectly legal for them to do so.

 

[Gator]

Except that I believe it would be necessary for the visitor to have completed a hunter's safety course before getting a permit.

Hmmmm...last hunting license I bought was in a hardware store in another state. I handed over the cash and got the tag.

To the OP: Foreigners come to the US on vacation expressly to shoot guns! "Mack" is a fool.

 

[Wes Janson]

Anyhow, I have severe doubts about whether 922(g)(5)(B) is valid law after the decision in Heller v. DC. If non-immigrant aliens are part of "the people" referred to by the Fourth Amendment, then they should also be part of "the people" referred to by the Second.

Great, except who wants to raise their hand and get to be a test case? Particularly since Heller said nothing about the right of tourists to keep and bear arms.

I've seen businessmen from the UK come and rent guns at a local range many, many times. It is perfectly legal for them to do so.

I've also seen young adults smoke marijuana many, many times (including in public, for that matter). It is, however, quite illegal for them to do so. "Ignorance of the law is not a valid defense".

 

[awkx]

Anyhow, I have severe doubts about whether 922(g)(5)(B) is valid law after the decision in Heller v. DC. If non-immigrant aliens are part of "the people" referred to by the Fourth Amendment, then they should also be part of "the people" referred to by the Second.

Great, except who wants to raise their hand and get to be a test case? Particularly since Heller said nothing about the right of tourists to keep and bear arms.

Ideally, this question would be decided by suing for injunctive relief, just like in Heller, rather than via criminal prosecution.

 

[highorder]

I've seen businessmen from the UK come and rent guns at a local range many, many times. It is perfectly legal for them to do so.

I took a Brit and a Dutch guy to the S&W Academy in Springfield Mass. They provided picture ID that stated they were over 18, and handed over greenbacks. They had no problems all day, except for trying not to flinch with the Model 29.... In Massachusetts of all places.

What kind of range are we talking about here?

 

[Erik]

Lots of misinformation...

In general, I wouldn't read the 922(g) language too interpretively... And I certainly wouldn't cite Heller as any type of affirmative defense at this stage. Simply put, don't be an alien caught with firearms and/or ammunition if you don't fall under the enumerated exceptions. Folks get deported, sometimes after prison stints, over it.

Specifically, if your friend falls under one of the exceptions as you indicated, federal laws won't be violated by his possessing firearms and/or ammunition, and using them. Emphasis on the word "if."

 

[Erik]

Now here is a question for the crowd: Generally speaking, can aliens visiting the US legally obtain hunting licenses, thus satisfying the exception? Generally speaking as in not those admitted specifically for hunting or sporting purposes, or under as "special categories" of visitors with priveledges not available to most?