Non-US residents allowed to shoot at range?

[Tyris]

Confirmed, Mack is an idiot.

Perhaps Mack should take a trip to Hawaii and look at al the Japanese shooting in the local ranges.

-T

 

[Wes Janson]

Hey Tyris, do me a favor: call up the ATF and actually ask them. Don't take my word for it, take theirs. Ask them if a foreign tourist may possess/purchase/use a firearm. If you really believe that I'm wrong, and that it's legal, then why not call them up and prove it?

 

[Tyris]

Do you seriously think renting a firearm at a range for 20 minutes is "possession"?

Why would I care about the ATF's opinion, those bone heads reverse them selves like a wino's stale underwear. They do not write the laws, and they certainly wont know if some tourist shoots a gun.

Stop living in fear. Japanese or some other tourists shooting a gun at a range is not the end of the world. You can come out from under your bed, the bad old ATF wont kill your wife or rape your dog tonight.

-T

 

[bthest86]

Why would I care about the ATF's opinion, those bone heads reverse them selves like a wino's stale underwear. They do not write the laws, and they certainly wont know if some tourist shoots a gun.

If you don't care for their opinion then surely you wouldn't have a problem building machine guns in your basement. Yeah the laws are stupid but, regardless, the opinion of the ATF can often mean the difference between freedom and a 10+ year prison sentence.

A felon renting a gun at a range or borrowing one from a friend in supervision would certainly be considered in "possession" and I don't think it would be hard for a court to say the same about "possession" for non-resident tourists.

Heller should change that law since everyone (citizens, illegals, tourists, ect) with in the Jurisdiction of the USA is protected by the bill of rights. It should get rid of whole mess of laws. But until it does, or ever does, I'd have to agree with the others that tourists renting or shooting guns is stretching the law a bit. Just because its ignored doesn't mean that it will be ignored tomorrow.

 

[NC Dave]

I took a Brit and a Dutch guy to the S&W Academy in Springfield Mass. They provided picture ID that stated they were over 18, and handed over greenbacks. They had no problems all day, except for trying not to flinch with the Model 29.... In Massachusetts of all places.

What kind of range are we talking about here?

None of the local ranges here in the Raleigh / Durham area have a citizenship requirement to shoot on their range. I'm talking about coming with a friend or just renting a range gun. If you have a photo ID and can pass the range safety test and have the money, you're in. Who here has ever had to show anything beyond a driver's license as proof if ID to shoot on any range? Why do you think it is different for someone with an accent?

Even the Wake County Firearms Education Center (run by the Sheriff's department) has no problems with foreign nationals shooting at the range.

Is purchasing a firearm a whole other can of worms? You betcha. Is using a range rental or shooting as a guest of someone else a legal problem? Absolutely not.

I've also seen young adults smoke marijuana many, many times (including in public, for that matter). It is, however, quite illegal for them to do so. "Ignorance of the law is not a valid defense".

Quite correct, and this argument would be valid if it we illegal for a foreign national to shoot a firearm on a commercial or private range. It is not.

 

[everallm]

Even in NJ tourists can shoot but not OWN.

The "special" categories are for items such as (but not exclusively)

Diplomatic bodyguards
Foreign military on attached duty
Hunters who may be out in wild on their own
Etc

These are for weapons ownership or where the loaned weapon would not remain in the immediate control of the US owner.

So, folks who are not either US citizens or permanent residents can shoot at an indoor or outdoor range or private land or other area that it is legal to shoot so long as the weapon remains in the immediate control of the owner or their designee (if a company or corporate).

Immediate control means you are physically present at all times not you have you grubby paws on it at all time.

So for example a lot of Brits, when in Vegas go to "The Gun Store"

http://www.thegunstorelasvegas.com/rental.htm

and rent FA for shooting at their indoor range.

You hand over photo ID, typically a passport, pick your toy of choice, buy ammo and go to the bays and start shooting. That's it.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Or simply put, it says that a non-immigrant alien can't "possess" or "receive" a firearm. Both terms seem to denote ownership or unsupervised control of the firearm, so simply shooting a gun under its owner's direct supervision might be in compliance with the statute, depending on how "possess" is interpreted.

Words have meaning, and should have the same meaning whenever and wherever used.

Convicted felons are barred from "possessing" firearms. This means that a felon may not shoot or even touch a firearm. So if non-immigrant alinens are not allowed to "possess" firearms -- why does the word "possess" have a different meaning for them than it does for felons? Just because Ukrainian non-immigrant aliens are good guys and convicted felons are bad guys? What if the convicted felon is your younger sister, who was sentenced to 18 months for possession of marijuana? Still a bad person who should be forever barred from even touching a firearm?

"Possession" should have only one meaning. Let's be consistent, rather than define words as we think they best suit the particular context. Have Vladimir get a hunting license.

 

[Henry Bowman]

Also from Section 992:

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or
deliver--
(1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee
knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years
of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is other than a shotgun
or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual
who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less
than twenty-one years of age;
(2) any firearm to any person in any State where the purchase or
possession by such person of such firearm would be in violation of
any State law or any published ordinance applicable at the place of
sale, delivery or other disposition, unless the licensee knows or
has reasonable cause to believe that the purchase or possession
would not be in violation of such State law or such published
ordinance;
(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has
reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is
a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of
business in) the State in which the licensee's place of business is
located, except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale
or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other
than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located if
the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the
transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the
legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed
manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of
this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to
have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances
of both States), and (B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a
firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting
purposes;
(4) to any person any destructive device, machinegun (as defined
in section 5845 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986), short-
barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, except as specifically
authorized by the Attorney General consistent with public safety and
necessity; and
(5) any firearm or armor-piercing ammunition to any person
unless the licensee notes in his records, required to be kept
pursuant to section 923 of this chapter, the name, age, and place of
residence of such person if the person is an individual, or the
identity and principal and local places of business of such person
if the person is a corporation or other business entity.

An FFL can rent or loan a firearm to "any person for temporary use for lawful sporting
purposes" unless disqualified under paragraph (1) or (2). A non-FFL does not get the benefit of this exception [edited to add] and also is not bound by the quoted section either.

 

[Novus Collectus]

Even if it was illegal for a non-resident immigrant to possess a firearm without a hunting license at an FFL's range, as I read on this forum before about this, most states have a cheap hunting license that sometimes does not require a hunter safety course.
For instance in my state of MD there is a hunting license for hunting quail in canned hunts on enclosed property that does not require a hunter safety course and only costs $6. This hunting license should be good nationwide for the exception.

 

[davidjblythe]

From talking with other people that worked at the shop, Mack was only being cautious... maybe overly cautious. The store had some incidents involving foreign nationals and they want to avoid trouble. I told the store owner that there were several exemptions from the non-immigrant visa restriction. He did concede to the hunting license exemption and the military diplomat exemption. It looks like this whole situation has been diffused.

 

[blackcash88]

To the OP: Foreigners come to the US on vacation expressly to shoot guns! "Mack" is a fool.

Exactly. How else do you explain the popularity of foreigners renting full autos in Las Vegas, Guam (US territory), etc? Japanese tourists are especially notorious for this. Seen a bunch of them on vacation shooting in Hawaii (no full auto), too.

 

[Tyris]

If you don't care for their opinion then surely you wouldn't have a problem building machine guns in your basement. Yeah the laws are stupid but, regardless, the opinion of the ATF can often mean the difference between freedom and a 10+ year prison sentence.

I own a real MG, it sort of lost its luster after a few months. Now it just sits in the back of the safe and only gets shot when someone asks about it. These days I just stick to quiet guns. Few things bring a smile to my face like a silenced 22, or silenced subsonic bolt gun.

That said, I dont have a problem if people build MGs in their basement. I've seen enough "tricked out" AKs and SKS out in the woods here to know that it happens, and somehow these people miraculously manage to avoid scrutiny in their act of civil disobedience. I tip my hat to them, and I have no doubt there are far more where they came from. Like I've said before, if you're going to build an illegal MG, for god sake, build an illegal silencer to go with it so you don't attract attention.

-T

 

[Wes Janson]

You can quote whatever you want, but I have the direct knowledge that it's illegal as per the ATF, and the statements made in Florida Firearms: Law, Use, & Ownership Sixth Edition that both assert that renting or using a gun is illegal for a tourist.

Direct quote from Jon H. Gutmacher's book (Chapter Two, pp29, paragraph 2):

Those aliens who are "non-immigrants" here on a "non-immigrant" visa may also purchase/possess ammo and firearms under specialized conditions set forth in 18 USC 922(y)(2). The 90 day residency requirement applies to purchases from federal firearm licensees (FFL's) in an over the counter sale. Since purchase usually requires a current hunting license, expiration of such a license would make possession illegal. If you're wondering how a visiting alien can do a temporary shoot (rental) at a firing range, ATF tells me they can't.

Chapter Nine, pp 161:

Nonimmigrant aliens are treated differently under the statutes and rules. They are normally non-citizens who are merely visiting the United States, or are going to school here. These individuals are generally prohibited from purchasing or possessing firearms or ammunition in the United States due to the passage of the Omnibus Appropriations Act of 1999. This excludes from purchase/possession students, and most temporary visitors except some narrow exemptions. The prohibition may even prevent temporary use at a range. *172


Footnote 172 pp270: I've heard it two ways from ATF. One way is it's legal because since the gun doesn't leave the range it's still in the possession of the range vs. the user. (Same reasoning applies to rental of a machine gun). On the other hand, ATF is very clear you can't sell a non-immigrant alien any ammo unless they have a hunting license or fall into some other exception - so they obviously can't shoot!

As for not believing me, please research the case of Mohamed and Megahed. They were charged with and found guilty of illegal possession of a firearm by a non-immigrant alien, for having rented a firearm without a valid hunting permit or exemption.

You can argue what the law means all you'd like, but the important facts are that people have been arrested and imprisioned for such actions. ATF's interpretation, in my opinion, is indeed incorrect and temporary use should not equal possession, but that doesn't change the concrete reality that it's considered to be a crime by the government.

 

[waverace]

Possession in the eyes of the law means if the gun is in your control (in your hands ) then you have possession .
this applies to range rentals ,gun stores ,gun shows ,friends house etc etc if you are not meant to possess a firearm you cannot touch one !!
I know this because as a legal resident in WA state we are having problems with local laws that prohibit us from possessing firearms so I checked with those that should know and thats what they told me .

 

[blackcash88]

You can quote whatever you want, but I have the direct knowledge that it's illegal as per the ATF, and the statements made in Florida Firearms: Law, Use, & Ownership Sixth Edition that both assert that renting or using a gun is illegal for a tourist.

Ok, I'll ask again.

How do you explain the popularity of foreigners renting full autos in Las Vegas, Guam (US territory), etc? Japanese tourists are especially notorious for this. Seen a bunch of them on vacation shooting in Hawaii (no full auto), too. I've seen this many, many times and it's a VERY popular activity for them. Wouldn't the BATFE have busted those business and we'd be hearing about all the arrests because the media LOVES to paint firearms in a negative light?

On the other hand, ATF is very clear you can't sell a non-immigrant alien any ammo unless they have a hunting license or fall into some other exception - so they obviously can't shoot!

What if it's "given" to them as in rent this machine gun for 10 minutes and get 100 rounds free type of a deal?

Nonimmigrant aliens are treated differently under the statutes and rules. They are normally non-citizens who are merely visiting the United States, or are going to school here. These individuals are generally prohibited from purchasing or possessing firearms or ammunition in the United States due to the passage of the Omnibus Appropriations Act of 1999. This excludes from purchase/possession students, and most temporary visitors except some narrow exemptions. The prohibition may even prevent temporary use at a range. *172

Did you miss the part where "most temporary visitors" are excluded and it MAY prevent temporary use at a range? I don't see any blanked prohibition there.

 

[AndyC]

As for not believing me, please research the case of Mohamed and Megahed. They were charged with and found guilty of illegal possession of a firearm by a non-immigrant alien, for having rented a firearm without a valid hunting permit or exemption.

You're over-simplifying it - they were accused of 6 different explosives/terrorism-related offenses - and 1 of illegal possession of a firearm.

Quite a jump from that to a foreigner who wants to plink at a range with someone else's firearm under their supervision - just as I was when I first came to the US and shot here quite legally

Again, I will refer you to the ATF's own website: http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/form6updatesfaqs.htm

35. Q. I'm a nonimmigrant alien who is coming to the United States for two weeks to go hunting. Can I rent a firearm in the United States to use on this trip? What about if I want to go to a shooting range one day - can I rent a firearm there as well?

A. As long as you possess a valid hunting license from a State within the United States, you may rent firearms to hunt and to use at a shooting range. If you do not have the hunting license, your possession of the firearms and ammunition will be unlawful. The hunting license does NOT have to be from the State where you will be possessing the guns and ammunition.

 

[hirundo82]

An FFL can rent or loan a firearm to "any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes" unless disqualified under paragraph (1) or (2). A non-FFL does not get the benefit of this exception.

So can I as a "licensed collector" (C&R FFL) let a theoretical friend who is a nonresident alien use any of my firearms at the range, or only the C&R ones?

 

[Art Eatman]

I just got an email back from an ATF buddy. They regard "possession" as having it your hands.

It looks to me from reading the ATF regs Sticky at the top of this forum that the non-resident hunting license requirement would be the proper route to take.

 

[blackcash88]

Art, please ask your ATF buddy the questions I've asked multiple times already and got no answers. How the frick are tourists, especially Japanese, allowed to rent/shoot up to and including full auto in places like Hawaii ((no full auto), Vegas and even Guam which is still a US territory? I was stationed in Japan for years and, since they pretty much can't own "real guns", shooting in the states was a HUGE activity they enjoyed. And, I've seen them enjoying it in person. How is it they weren't arrested along with the gun shop owner/employees and/or put out of business?

Seriously, I cannot believe all those giggly moshi moshi Japanese men (and women) took the time to get non-resident hunting licenses.

 

[davidjblythe]

Roger. I think that instead of nit-picking his DOS status, it would be easier for him to pay $20 for a hunting license. For him it will be a keepsake when he goes back home.

 

[MAKster]

There are numerous shooting ranges in Hawaii and Las Vegas whose entire business is based on foreign tourists - mostly Japanese. I doubt they are issuing all these people hunting licenses before they can shoot. Possession means you have control of the object. If you rent a gun at a range the store still controls it from a legal standpoint.

 

[Wes Janson]

I just got an email back from an ATF buddy. They regard "possession" as having it your hands.

It looks to me from reading the ATF regs Sticky at the top of this forum that the non-resident hunting license requirement would be the proper route to take.

Thank you.


Now the next question, that I've not yet figured out, is how it is that this same ATF rationale doesn't apply to machinegun rentals or similar activities. Realistically, I think the basic problem lies in the interpretation of "possession" to refer to direct physical possession, which (IANAL) seems rather much of a stretch for the ATF to make. But that's the position they're sticking with, so I'm just trying to make sure people are aware of the facts.

 

[AndyC]

Yep, I agree; I believe that ATF really prefer to have it both ways, just in case they come across someone they really want to nail.

 

[RNB65]

As for not believing me, please research the case of Mohamed and Megahed. They were charged with and found guilty of illegal possession of a firearm by a non-immigrant alien, for having rented a firearm without a valid hunting permit or exemption.

I suspect the fact that they were also caught with illegal explosives in their car played a role in the decision to prosecute them on firearms charges.

I really could care less about what the ATF has to say on the matter. They've been lying about the interpretation of firearms laws for years. It's the US Justice Department that enforces and prosecutes federal law, not the BATFE. The BATFE is nothing but an investigative agency in regards to firearms laws. I would not hesitate to take a foreign visitor shooting if given the opportunity to do so.

 

[Henry Bowman]

So can I as a "licensed collector" (C&R FFL) let a theoretical friend who is a nonresident alien use any of my firearms at the range, or only the C&R ones?

The statute I quoted does not limit the type of firearm.