Not Again: .223 vs. 7.62 by 39

[Risasi]

I'll still take the AK in .223 (or maybe 5.45, if I can substitute, in the great openess you can sacrifice weight for time. Wait for them to bleed out from a .22 hole, vs. a .30 hole) if that's a choice. I live in the unfrozen tundra of North America. The Great Plains. You can easily make 300-1800 yard shots if you wanted to. Actually, where I grew up you can see for miles and miles. There is no underbrush for me with which to snag my .223. On the home defense front of my parent's farm we had anywhere from 50 yards to the barn, to 150 yards to the shelter belt of trees, to 200+ yards to the next hill.

Granted I'd still rather have a much larger slug. .30 to .50 caliber. But like I said, it doesn't matter that much. I would be just as comfortable with 7.69x39. I'll just wait for them to get a little closer...

Now I work in the "Metropolis". I think I would still take the .223, as it's indigenious to the environment. Seems like everybody uses .223 here. And shots aren't going to be over 150 yards. Doesn't matter anyway. That's why I bought a .50 Beo. That's my ticket for close range work. And I can switch uppers to 5.56 if I run out of ammo. SO that means in SHTF I can get a standard loadout for the cost of one bullet, if I'm careful, and smart...

 

[Gewehr98]

Just out of curiosity...

You can easily make 300-1800 yard shots if you wanted to.

How much energy is left in a .223 round after it's traveled 1800 yards?

(That's assuming the tactical mall golf cart steady rest and taped-on trauma plates don't interfere with accuracy at that range...)

 

[Risasi]

No Gewehr,


YOU can make 300-1800 yard shots...sorry, I said that to show what kind of shot distances we are dealing with. And that there isn't that much twiggy underbrush for the .223 to deflect upon.

I ain't gonna try it. Besides that's why I got the 30-378 Weatherby. I'm good to about 600 yards with it.



Although thinking about it now, once the crops start popping up you might have wheat, oats, alfalfa, corn and soybean crops to deal with. Igor does kind of make a good point.

 

[recondoc]

If you are currently in a situation where a Gang could be showing up to shoot at your house, please reevaluate your lifestyle.
That being said, .223 will give you an accuracy edge at distance. 7.62R will make sure that nasty people stop when hit.
Not to mention that a rifle in 7.62 will be much more affordable and will give you that much more ammo money to become proficient.
My 0.02 worth,
Doc

 

[Risasi]

If you are currently in a situation where a Gang could be showing up to shoot at your house, please reevaluate your lifestyle.

Oh, you know my old neighbors?

Actually this is a rather decent caution to have. Multiple attackers. We've had to deal with large groups of people getting violent. And out of town it's not like there is a police officer driving by every five minutes.

Between hunters shooting into the houses, to vandals up to no good, to keggers getting a little too frisky with the local neighbors.

We once had about 40 cars come down the drive because some kids decided to move the party location after their current residence went out over the police scanners. (Everyone had one back then, BTW) Anyway, the number of people we had break into the neighbor's house was quite large. At least 80 people.

Beware the Mwizi

 

[Gewehr98]

I actually had a residential situation like that...

Because my landlord didn't let me in on a little secret. The previous occupants of my duplex were hauled away by the Sacramento County Sheriff's Department for drug sales and distribution. That would explain the hasty repairs to the doors, etc.

Regardless, Sac County didn't get the word out to the previous clientele. Those same crack/meth customers paid my wife and I a couple late-night visits to discuss business, and they didn't care that the front door and windows were closed and locked. A trusty Remington 870 with 3" OOOO Buckshot was called into action twice on my part. Once the sheriff's department explained why we had guests arriving, we moved.

 

[benEzra]

mustanger98, my bad. Should've read more closely.

You've gotta admit that was a cool photo, though.

 

[recondoc]

For up close and personal hunting for nasty folks, the AK is a mighty tough contender. When the .30 Russian hits something, it tends to stay hit.
I don't know how dirty your house might be but for really filthy environments, the AK leads again. In my curcumstance, there was lots of free ammo to be found almost everywhere I looked.

 

[Too Many Choices!?]

I have said it before and I'll say it again....

.223/5.56, quite possibly the worlds GREATEST close quarter battle round !
Now don't worry, I know many people think it's,"anemic", and other such silly things, but when the SHTF, What do the guys in green/brown(whatever color it is now?) use? For the above scenario, I would lean heavily toward an AR-15 pistol or M4gery(swingability and rate controled aimed fire rule this kinda situation I suspect), but those are not options. Thus, I would have to go with my WASR AK-47 clone(hopefully with a better sight like red dot . Even with what I just wrote above, with an AK-47 and 30 rounds of 7.62X39, I would not feel at all UNDER-GUNNED ....

PS... The MINI-14 should not even be a variable in this equation

 

[CPS1]

"What do the guys in green/brown(whatever color it is now?) use?"
Actually looking at the post directly before yours I would say they use the AK. That said, I'm an Ar kind of guy. Just personal preference IMHO. As for the round, there are really too many variables with each shot to say one is more effective than the other. i.e. velocity, cover, body armour etc.

 

[mustanger98]

benEzra:

mustanger98, my bad. Should've read more closely.

You've gotta admit that was a cool photo, though.

It is a cool photo. Now, that said, I haven't had time to go through that sight yet. Is there a photo on there of a 12guage slug's effect on a windshield? Reason I ask is the difference in the angle of the glass. Whereas windshield glass will deflect .223/5.56mm, I've heard .308/7.62mm will penetrate it with much less deflection. I've heard nothing whatever of this aspect applying to 12guage. I hate to just make an assumption.

 

[slaphappy]

My opinion, and it's just that, is that if it's FMJ, then .223 is the way to go. SP?, 7.62x39 baby. A heavier soft point ought to be a MUCH better man stopper. Were talking about an urban situation, so the extended range of the .223 shouldn't be much of a factor.

 

[No_Brakes23]

Well, I will get the job done with either one. Personally I prefer the AK, I just shoot better with it despite having more training and experience with the M16A2.

I am not worried about the AR not hitting hard enough, and I am not trying any Hathcockian Headshots with the AK.

I live in Cali, so it is actually a choice between Yugo M59 SKS and SU-16CA for those two rounds. (Cause I ain't paying money for any Ruger Mini/Ranch, and .308 wasn't part of the original question.) I already own the Yugo, and I plan to buy the Kel-Tec. If/when I need to use them, I will defend my home with whichever weapon is most suitably configured to do so.

I prefer the M43 to the M885/M193, but either one will take care of business. The M43 is cheaper, so odds are, I will get more training in with it.

 

[swgunner]

as a gunnersmate in the navy we use m-14 m60. m4/16 whatever are too unreliable in hostile environs. in the persian gulf for example the sand is finer than baby powder and as the weapon is cleaned it sand blasts the gas tube making said weapon useless. the gas assembly of ak/aks/akm/sks is relatively immune. however hk has developed the hk 416 which is an awesome weapon. as others have said close-in go 12ga. or45 i personally think the tommy gun would excell in the scenario envisioned. also us army data has shown 556 to be ineffective at medium range when hostile force is wearing heavy clothing. the 6.8mm was supposed to have replaced 556 in the field but this did not happen, as usual bean-counters bbeat out guys on the front.

 

[evan price]

Geez guys....
Where's Gecko45 when we need him for the mall ninja report?

 

[JShirley]

When the .30 Russian hits something, it tends to stay hit

recondoc, what are you basing this on? It's my understanding that 7.62x39mm hits in Vietnam were usually less severe than 5.56x45mm, unless bone was hit.

Now, I personally think there are a lot of folks with too much time on their hands dithering about combat ammo, and I will use expanding ammunition when I have that option, but 5.56 ball appears to typically be more damaging than 7.62 ball.

John

 

[Glockfan.45]

The Box O Truth shows that 7.62x39mm is better suited to penetrating the car bodies that would be used as cover in this scenario. Having both ARs and AKs I would grab the AK first and proceed to dispense the contents of a 75 round drum at those foolish enough to target my residence for a drive by. When thats empty (if any are still standing) I will do a "New York reload" over to the AR with a 90 round snail drum. Said bangers would never know what hit them . There see the best of both worlds. Arent guns swell?

 

[recondoc]

I was basing my theory strictly on personal experience in Iraq. I ended up using an adopted AK for quite a while and was impressed with it's ability to take care of business. This is not a bullseye match round and will not be effective out past about 200 (at least not for me it wasn't), but in the up close and personal scenario of urban work, it did very nicely. All of my comparison was strictly my observation shooting side by side with other Marines who were using 5.56.
My observations are to be taken as "they are what they are". I don't have any Mall Ninja qualifications. I only saw what I saw and lived to tell about it. Sorry I'm not a magazine writer who can expound upon the topic more eloquently.
Doc

 

[JShirley]

Heh. Well, I like the AK in general- and in fact, I was shooting an 7.62 RPK today at about 400 meters. Single shots were suprisingly accurate.

I wasn't questioning your eloquence, just your evidence. Glad it worked for you.

John

 

[ShooterDave]

honestly if the senario of a band of gangsters shooting up my house ever came up, i would grab what ever is loaded. at "across the street" distance even a 9mm will sufice. i always say even a .22 is better than nothing. in this type of senario recoil comes into play as far as shot placement. if a gang comes to your house and starts shooting, chances are they arent going to leave just because you start making pot shots at them. at that range 30 cal or 223 both work fine but the 223 is going to have less recoil so you will have more acurate double taps. personally if that happened ho me my first choice would be a hand grenade, second would be a Tompson .45, but seeing as how i dont have either i would have to go with what i own, and out of that it would be the keltec su16. however since the AK is the one that is loaded and at the ready than i think i would just grab that and try to escape however i could.

 

[jpwilly]

AK!

 

[Vicious-Peanut]

I would pick up my Mini-14 because I like it. I dont complain about it like most people....

 

[Funderb]

Personally I am going with the 7.62x39
The fact of the matter is, it puts more lead in the air.
Magazines are easier to exchange, and the penetrating capabilities are better than the .223. And it's about 10 times louder, so while you are less likely to hit anything in this situation, the SKS/AK is a lot more terrifying of a weapon.
But if you really want to scare them it's a short barrel high power cartridge. ( I know I say it everywhere, the m44)

[Oh, and tumbling was proved to be a moot point a while ago. That's why no one really cares about the 5.45x39. That stuff tumbles like no other.]

 

[SpeedAKL]

I've never fired a Mini-14, so I can't say for sure. I'll go with the AK because it's a known quantity that would get the job done. As for AK vs AR, I would probably grab the AR because I'm more comfortable using it. I find it easier and more ergonomic to use quickly, as well as being easier to place multiple accurate shots in a very shot amount of time.

Of course, I'd have one of the guys here in the apartment with the rifle I choose not to use, I'd be carrying the 1911 as backup, and someone would have to be toting the 12-gauge with the slugs

Comfort and familiarity are most important here. You don't want to use a powerful weapon that you've had basically no experience with when it's your life on the line. Either 5.56 or 7.62x39 will have more than enough power at the kind of range we're talking about, certainly more than any standard pistol caliber.

 

[miko]

If a gang started firing at your house, would you pick up the Mini-14 or the AK?

Futrther than 300 yards you can hit much easier with .223. Close up .223 will be much more devastating against unprotected target.

If you are talking about a firefight at 15-100 yards, with enemies hiding behind the trees and cinderblocks, I would get 7.62x39.

miko