Not Again: .223 vs. 7.62 by 39

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its not always about how big a hole the bullet makes.my 1st two whitetails i shot were with a 30-06 with 165 and 180 grain slugs.i was'nt impressed.they ran over 50 yards,one 100yards.i tried 125 grain gamekings slug and wow,they dropped immediately.i had a 125 grain 30 caliber slug going 3200fps,200fps short of what a 257weatherby magnum does,a gun thats killed every known animal on the face of this earth with a 117 grain slug going 3400fps.it caused immediate shock and death.i leaves a small slice all the way through with little damage to meat.there is a magic killing force for most bullet weights going over 3000fps.thats why i get fast kills with smaller bullets.i do make sure to use bullets that stay together long enough to go deep.i now use a 22-250 with 60 grain nosler partitions cause the 50 grain bullets are only offered in varmint bullets that blow up too shallow at 22-250 speeds but they two work.all my kills are immediate even if i don't hit a good area.i've had them drop dead on the spot from a hit anywhere from a gut shot to a shoulder hit.my hunting buddy uses a ruger223 bolt with 55grain gamekings and makes easy kills.this is'nt the only way to achieve kills,its just the reason why the 223 is a better killer than 7.62x39.yes smaller bulls have more wind drift than heavier ones at the same speed,but they are'nt going the same speed.if you push a light bullet fast enough then you get a light flat shooting accurate low recoil bullet with very little wind drift that creates instant shock resulting in death.now some soldiers have had to shoot people multiple times with the new guns their using now when shooting far away targets.this is because they shortened the barrels and lost vital fps needed for shock.its like being stabbed with a hot ice poker several times,but only when its a far shot.they needed guns short enough to get in and out of trucks quickly while policing over there.an 7.62x39 might do better in that situation but in one of our fine rifles and not some spray and pray type gun like our enemies are using.theres other ways than my method,like using soft points but thats another subject.

Yes, and no.

When it works, shock can produce magnificent results. But it isn't as reliable as other wounding mechanisms.

Our family has had the opposite experience as yours. My dad loaded 165 gr Gamekings in his .30-06. At the velocities he was loading them, they came apart inside 100 yards. Typically, if there was an exit wound, it was just what remained of the core as all of the jacket and most of the core was found fragmented inside the chest cavity. But the animals still ran incredible distances before expiring. He switched to the 180 gr Gamekings, which stuck together and penetrate better, while still maintaining good expansion, and not only did the animals cover less ground after being hit, but exit wounds meant better blood trails in recovering them.

When I got my 7mm Rem Mag, my first deer was shot at a distance of about 30 feet, broadside, right behind the shoulder. The slightly compressed load of Hodgens 870 propelled the 160 gr Nosler Partition at over 3000 fps. At that velocity, the bullet fragmented and only the rear core fully penetrated the animal. Shock forces were immense. It looked like a grenade went off inside the animal's chest. Jacket fragments were found in the backstrap, as well as in meat between ribs near the brisket. The heart was blown out of its protective membrane and bruised. The lungs were blown to chunks, much of which was sprayed across the forest behind the exit wound, along with hair and bone. The animal still ran almost 30 yards before collapsing.

Then this last hunting season, my dad was packing a custom .338 Remington Ultra Mag. With a 30 inch Lilja barrel, this rifle was shooting 250 gr Matchkings over a chrono at over 3100 fps. He shot a smallish doe in the last minutes of shooting light. The deer turned slightly as the trigger broke and the quartering on shot missed the onside shoulder, penetrated diagonally across the chest cavity, and exited about 3 inches behind the last offside rib. The exit wound looked like a ragged 8 inch long slash or tear. At least a liter of blood along with chunks of lung and much of the liver was blown out of the exit wound. The deer reeled and covered over 90 yards, losing much of its entrails in the process, before succumbing to its wounds.

In all of these cases, the animal sustained far more shock forces than any .22 caliber centerfire is capable of producing, but the animals still covered amazing distances. My theory is that these shock forces can trigger the animal's instinctive flight drive more acutely than impacts which impart less of these shock forces. With these survival drives triggered, the animal's blood stream is flooded with adrenaline and endorphins which dull pain perception and allow the animal to sustain incredible damage while still covering seemingly impossible distances. It is the same reason why bows remain relatively effective within their range parameters as a high powered rifle--they are quieter, which is less alarming to the animal. It doesn't detect as much harm or danger as the sharp crack and boom of a high powered rifle, so it doesn't run as far before blood loss takes it toll.

There are two reliable stopping mechanisms for living beings. Neither of them is shock forces as related to so-called "hydro-static" shock. The first is to destroy the Central Nervous System with either a shot to the brain, or the spinal cord. The second is depriving vital organs of oxygen, usually through the destruction of critical cardio-respiratory structures. In this case, the animal goes into shock, but this shock is due to blood loss and occurs late enough that by the time it takes effect, the animal is unlikely to continue fighting/fleeing for any significant time period. At that point, death in imminent without immediate medical attention.

My experience shooting living things has taught me never to rely on shock forces imparted by a projectile to debilitate a living creature. I've seen it fail too many times.
 
those examples are slightly different than what i was talking about.your using large magnum rounds that are known for blowing them away lol.the only reason they ran as far as they did was likely cause they were alreaddy running all day with adrenalin.your 165 grain loads did'nt match the bullet.you needed to slow it down a bit or use a bullet suited for that speed.i can see your a big fan of magnums.thats cool.sometimes its fun to blow stuff up lol.i never had anything against my old 30-06.i'd still have it but i just don't have room for anything i don't use often.so many hobbies and so little space.but getting back on subject.the 7.62 has 20% less power than a 3030winchester.its just not that impressive to me.the russians are'nt completely convinced its what they want either or they would'nt be trying knew stuff like their 22x39.mtmalitiaman i like how you explained you opinion two.
 
the russians are'nt completely convinced its what they want either or they would'nt be trying knew stuff like their 22x39.mtmalitiaman i like how you explained you opinion two.

The Russians are "experimenting" with the 5.45x39 because it makes more sense for them than it does for us. Their infantry doctrine involves more massed fire, and their troops aren't generally as highly trained as ours. A flat trajectory/low recoil impulse cartridge is easier to train conscripts on. Still, they obviously aren't completely convinced the 5.45x39 is all the need, or certain more highly trained units wouldn't still be demanding access to the close in firepower provided by the 7.62x39. It works both ways.

And I fail to see how my examples were not what you were talking about. I shot my first deer with a .223 loaded with 55 gr SPs. That failed to impress me. I used a .270 for a couple years after that, then moved up to a 7mm Rem Mag. I went with a 160 gr Accubond at about 2960 fps. And yes, magnums are generally favored in my family. We hunt deer as well as elk with the same rifles and loads and while it is possible to humanely take elk with much smaller cartridges, we have enough respect for their tenacity to use the largest cartridges we feel comfortable with.

The 7.62x39 may not have the power of some larger rounds, but it is more powerful and capable of better terminal effect than the 5.56. So if you're not impressed with it, you certainly shouldn't be boasting the effects of the 5.56 like they are something they are not.
 
It never ceases to amaze me. The fact that folks will not read, will never get past the thing that is currently in their mind because it is clouding all other train of thought that a poster such as me is trying to convey.

Now let me be clear. Try to read this. Look at every word. Or don't respond if you're not going to bother.

Again, I was referring to the exaggerated claims that the .223 was a superior round because it has a longer range. Now put the 7.62 out of your minds past 300 yards because NO ONE is claiming that. Only the .223 promoters are claiming the effectiveness of the .223 past 300 yards.

Still reading or are you just skimming?

Try to study this.

Take some adhd meds.

The .223 is NOT SUITABLE for long range shooting because of the itty bitty round and the wind drift.

I AM NOT saying the 7.62X39 is.

Others are trying to say the .223 is. When in fact it is NOT.

Look at your own silly computer data charts on the wind drift. About 2 feet at 400 yards, will your sites or scope compensate for 2 feet? 83 inches at 700 yards, will your scope or sites adjust that much.

Get a clue yet?

Get a proper weapon for those ranges, the .223 nor the 7.62X39 is not. The claim that the .223 is a superior weapon because of longer range is BS because of wind drift.

Unless you need adhd meds and didn't take them, you get what I just wrote.
 
Hmmm... Condescending with a heavy dash of insulting. Tastes like...tastes like ... ahhh, I've got it! Tastes like the door hitting you in the a$$ on the way out!

".223 vs. 7.62 by 39?" I believe is the title of the thread. You've denigrated the rest of the posters, accused them of having psychiatric problems, suggested that they can't follow your blinding logic (Should have said, "I'll use SMALL words and short sentences, so I ... I mean YOU ... don't get confused!":D), and your final answer is...neither? :banghead:

Think we could find a less arrogant and boorish way to say, "I don't have anything more to contribute?"

:rolleyes:

Learn to communicate politely or "join the band," friend.
-Sam
 
Yea, delete my account and bite me. You can't read what I wrote anyway, so there. Look at the stupid charts all you want, the .223 will never be very effective past 300.
 
I agree with Mr. Slob. Perhaps he could have been a bit more eloquent in what he said, but I think he's correct in his assertion.

Also, sometimes I think people take possession of their favorite Tacti-kewl Kommando rifle, and immediately, whatever cartridge it happens to chambered for becomes the greatest combat AND hunting cartridge ever known to man.

Personally, I think neither cartridges in question is of much use past a couple hundred yards. And within that distance (as I said in a previous post) I firmly believe the larger bullet would be the better killer. Again, I base this on 30+ years of digging bullets out of dead game and tracing the path and damage wrought by said bullets. All things equal: Bigger bullet=bigger hole.

35W
 
There's no need for 100+ posts in a .223 vs. 7.62x39 thread anymore. I have the answer!


7.62x39mm SOFT POINT
. End of debate. :p

No 5.56 can match the destructive power of that. No tumbling, no fragmentation, nothing. A 77gr at a blazing 2,830fps still doesn't come close. Forget 80's, they don't feed from a magazine - but even if they did, they still don't match an x39 soft point.

Generally, I really don't like the caliber or bullet-type nitpicking debates. As in the greater scheme of things, when you put the whole game into perspective, it is a MINOR concern compared to say - shot placement, warrior mindset, training etcetera....

For some obsessive types, it is an utter waste of brain power that is better used on other aspects of firearm defense.
 
oldfatslob,

THR is different from other online forums. We value a certain level of civility, productive discussion, and arguments from cite-able facts instead of repeating myths and more or less baseless opinion. My first post after you resurrected this three year old thread questioned whether or not it was "worth it" to bring back an ancient thread when no new information or valuable arguments were presented.

Sam1911 is right on two counts: (1) your attitude and behavior in the last few posts, where you resort to personal attacks and condescension, is totally out of line on THR - and will not be tolerated; and (2) it is reasonable to assume that since the topic of discussion is "223 vs 7.62x39" that wind drift comments are relevant to that comparison.

I strongly recommend that when posters start a thread, or come into a thread, that they do so with a specific thesis idea in mind that will be helpful to the discussion, state that thesis clearly, and then back it up with data and a reasonable argument.
 
those examples are slightly different than what i was talking about.your using large magnum rounds that are known for blowing them away lol.the only reason they ran as far as they did was likely cause they were alreaddy running all day with adrenalin.your 165 grain loads did'nt match the bullet.you needed to slow it down a bit or use a bullet suited for that speed.i can see your a big fan of magnums.thats cool.sometimes its fun to blow stuff up lol.i never had anything against my old 30-06.i'd still have it but i just don't have room for anything i don't use often.so many hobbies and so little space.but getting back on subject.the 7.62 has 20% less power than a 3030winchester.its just not that impressive to me.the russians are'nt completely convinced its what they want either or they would'nt be trying knew stuff like their 22x39.mtmalitiaman i like how you explained you opinion two.

My previous reply to this response was cut short because I had to go to work and have been away from keys for a couple days.

To continue, this is what really bothers me about arguments concerning the 5.56. Because this cartridge, more than any other, defies logic. It has been this way ever since some high ranking military brass and politicians were gathered together to watch people shoot watermelons with the then new plastic Black Rifle. People think there is something "magic" to it, and there just isn't.

The examples I listed were the exact same forces as those involved with the 5.56mm, just on a much larger scale. For them to be discredited as "not the same thing" and for it then to be suggested that I slow the bullets down to velocities they stick together makes so little sense that I can't believe I actually read it. I keep looking for some indicator of sarcasm.

Bullet fragmentation is bullet fragmentation. It occurs because forces involve stress a bullet beyond those which it was designed to handle while maintaining structural integrity. It is the same in the M855 ball round as it is in the Mk 262 Mod I OTM round as it is in the M118LR OTM round or a 160 gr Nosler Partition in a 7mm Rem Mag. The wounding mechanism is exactly the same. For someone to entertain the notion that this mechanism is what makes the 5.56 so effective, but it is different for other cartridges, is asinine and retarded in the extreme, and just goes to show how utterly and completely beyond reasonable debate some people are on this topic.

This could go on for ten pages and there would still be people arguing that the 5.56 is better because it fragments, or because of invisible purple shock gremlins, or some other nonsense that doesn't apply to any other physical force in this solar system, let alone any other cartridge.
 
Well, if several years and six pages of debate haven't cleared it up by now, it doesn't look like this thread is going to be the one to do it.
 
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