Nra Betrayal Of Trust *important*

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Well I know a lot of back scratching takes place among the purists here

No back scratching ... I just happen to agree with Tempest's points.

Now let me surprise you by agreeing with a few of yours. :eek: ;)

While we’re at it perhaps we can all avoid lumping people into broad characterizations here. I was under the impression this board was above that. What happened to the free exchange of ideas without the personal characterizations? Are we so literally challenged, so week that we need to stoop to that? I (and I seriously doubt Tempest or Oleg either) are neither conspiracy theorizing historical revisionists, nor factually ignorant, nor even (oh joy) part of the tin foil brigade.

Boats, I agree with your take on history. The NRA was indeed the pivotal gun rights group for much of history. They have been instrumental in defending us to a large degree. But that doesn’t give them a free pass to ongoing loyalty, especially when through some of that very historical compromise they’re also partly responsible for some of the issues we face today.

I’ve also been around long enough to know the reality of politics. Certainly there are times when compromise is both politically expedient and unavoidable. We’ll never win all battles. Sometimes it’s all we can do to head home defeated (perhaps even forced into a compromise) but with pride in putting forth a valiant effort.

My problem is with the attitude that we can start from a position of compromise, or be fully willing to do so well before all our resources in the fight are exhausted. The NRA seem far too willing to play give-and-take games even when they have a good chance of total victory.

Worse, they play as if they are the only game in Washington, and refuse to share credit when due. This weakens the entire RKBA by seeming to marginalize other perhaps more effective groups.

But enough for now … apparently I need to go polish my tin foil hat
:rolleyes:
 
So do a better job than the NRA. It's that simple. Establish a track record that doesn't include begging for help from the NRA members and do a bettr job.

It's simple supply and demand. Create a better mousetrap and go for it. You don't need to even acknowledge the NRA.

In short, build it and they will come.

To the other poster who said they wouldn't give money to the NRA because they aren't the ones voting on the bills. That's correct. The NRA in the last two election had an impressive track record for getting A rated candidates elected. They also are the best lobbying group according to Fortune Magazine.

They just don't push the button for the politician. They can only trust, just like any other voter, that the politian will do the right thing.
 
Boats, if the situations were really as bleak and the NRA as powerless as you claim, why should I believe they've actually accomplished anything? Seems like the only national "victories" would be the cop-killer and plastic gun legislation.
 
For me, I think that social demographics played a more important role in the decisions. The fear of the wealthy (read politicians) of popular uprising during the depression, the politicians (read wealthy) fear of political uprising from the "bonus army". Black uprisings for civil rights and MLK...

For virtually every anti-gun legislative action there was a set of circumstances that fostered that knee-jerk fear of the masses. In every instance, had emotions been given time to cool, liklihood of passage of the anti-gun legislation would have greatly diminished.

The same is true of the Patriot Act and other modern affectations of knee-jerk emotional reactions. Sure political party affiliation has something to do with it, but in those days, I believe that fear of the masses had more to do with it.

Boats - NRAs platform of compromise worked very well for them over the years, but we're rapidly running out of things to compromise. Where do we go when there's nothing left? I agree with Wild Bill. There may be a time coming when the NRA is going to have to shift their strategy to one that refutes compromise as their preferred model. And some of their "A" candidates are absolutely, unequivocally not worth their "A" rating. Why did the NRA provide that rating when it is so sharply contrasted by that politicians efforts?
 
The NRA is an 800 Lb gorilla. That is the good news.

They have worked hard and have prevented some pretty horrific gun laws. However, when an organization gets too big and becomes a political entity itself, abuses, back door dealing and compromise will always follow.

The same thing has happened to the United Way, AARP and others.

They are more interested in their own survival and retention of their high paying positions than actually doing the right thing for its members.

I'm still an NRA member but I am very disappointed at some of the decisions made sacrificing machine guns and ugly black rifles.

What to do?
 
One can readily note that almost all of the major gun control legislation ever passed came about when the Democrats controlled all of the branches of government.

Really?

It was under the watch of a Republican president that the BATF came into being. And it was under watch of yet another Republican president that the Crime Control Act of 1990 became law.
 
Well I'd say that the three major, paradigm shifting, pieces of anti-gun legislation ever passed were all Demo originated and signed into law, namely the NFA of '34, the GCA of '68, and the '94 Crime Bill. Compared to that unholy trinity the rest are minor.
 
Well I'd say that the three major, paradigm shifting, pieces of anti-gun legislation ever passed were all Demo originated and signed into law, namely the NFA of '34, the GCA of '68, and the '94 Crime Bill. Compared to that unholy trinity the rest are minor.
Two out of the three were supported by the NRA, according to their own article in Rifleman.
 
Time to play revisionist lobbyist Nicki.


What should the NRA have done to kill ultimate passage of the 1934 NFA or the 1968 GCA in light of the huge Democratic majorities present in Congress at the time and with no hope of a veto?

This ought to be interesting. BTW, I'm still awaiting evidence of the NRA sponsored AWB of 1994.
 
What they should have done in the past is not the issue here. What they are doing now is.
 
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What should the NRA have done to kill ultimate passage of the 1934 NFA or the 1968 GCA in light of the huge Democratic majorities present in Congress at the time and with no hope of a veto?
Boats, You're not grasping the difference between fighting it tooth and nail and failing (something I can respect) and voicing support for it! (Something I will not and cannot condone.)

This ought to be interesting. BTW, I'm still awaiting evidence of the NRA sponsored AWB of 1994
Who said it did?
 
The NRA is the 'Brady Bunch' in disguise?

The best that the NRA can ever do at a political level, is help mobilize the masses to elect pro-gun politicians. Beyond that the NRA is playing against a stacked deck. About the only other thing the NRA could to, near a political level is let its membership know the evils going on with regard to the continuous subversion of the 2nd ammendment by elected officials.

Given that, I'll continue to support their efforts to that effect.
 
C'mon! Let's not have it both ways. One cannot decontextualize the NRA and then essentially accuse it of staying in business to fight legislation it promulgated.

KMKeller:
What they should have done in the past is not the issue here. What they are doing now is.

Well I am not the one that has detached the NRA from the moorings of history and the tenor of the times to accuse them of thriving on falsely combatting gun laws by passing them.

It is interesting that such a thought disconnect is possible. How can one decontextualize the NRA from the political scene as they confronted it and then claim that the present would be somehow better had they fought tooth and nail and failed? Had the NRA not supported alternate bills in exceedingly hostile legislative environments, it is likely that none of us would have anything more than singles shot rifles and black powder weapons today if that.

I do not even consider the American Rifleman article to be all that damning back in 1968. The truth is that since it had to deviate from its founding mission of improving American marksmanship into defending weapons access to the lawabiding, the NRA has been fighting a rearguard action.

In 1871, one could and did afford, any type of firearm within his or her means unless subject to some Jim Crow style restriction.

Let us start from this premise then: In 1871, the average white male American gunowner had the world as his oyster. Any size, any caliber, any range, any rate of fire, any concealbility feature desired, facing only the odd local restriction in Dodge City and other notable places.

When one has everything and one's opponents have nothing, and one cannot kill one's opponents, there is only one direction the fight is going to go in the long term. The nascent antis started nowhere and could only get somewhere at gunowners' expense.

It is an interesting feature of the Orth article that it uses the word undesireables. Like any conservative institution staffed by humans, the NRA took on the cast of its membership of the times. There was a broad WASPish consensus that undesireables not be armed at all, and as a byproduct, only unseemly women went armed. Those positions wouldn't have been controversial even amongst the membership of the day and in no way does modern second guessing make the old-timers "wrong."

The gang wars of the Prohibition Era only intensified this culture biased reaction. "True Americans" had always sought to disarm the alien "other," be they Native Americans, blacks, Catholic European immigrants or Jews. One could not properly allow the teeming masses to have the tools of violent revolutionary overthrow and crime. Such we see things such as NY's Sullivan Law and the NFA.

I will attempt to check the legislative history soon, but I am confident that the NRA agreed with the NFA to the extent that they wanted to tune the bill within the framework of knowing it was going to be passed with or without them. A group gets its say by getting in on the process rather than being shunned as outside of it.

Another interesting item in the damning Orth article was a couple of terms attributed to Senator Robert F. Kennedy. He called the NRA "extremists," and furthermore a piece of agitprop, the so-called "mail order murder" (loophole no doubt) was employed. What rings so familiar about that these days? One can only wonder.

So a 1968 presidential candiate with an much beloved assassinated president brother accuses the NRA of being extremist and by implication, anti-American, catering to lowlifes and undesireables who have been linked to the death of his brother with a mail order Italian surplus rifle. Seems like a major political problem even today. Orth responds that push come to shove, the NRA has worked with its opponents in an attempt to ensure that the law-abiding weren't too harmed by pending gun control legislation by trying to frame it and steer it in a direction they could live with. There is a fundamental difference between enthusiastically supporting a hated cause of the opposition, and compromise with opponents to preserve something of what one wants when defeat is a distinct possibility. Remember the NRA started with everything, a total loss through inflexibility was probably never even comtemplated in those more genteel times.

Today's view of the NRA from certain absolutist quarters says much more about the coarsening of public debate than it does about the NRA historically. People could respect an ancient NRA that could have moved itself into early marginalization a long time ago and left the field clear for the gun haters? That is, quite frankly, nuts. One cannot decontextualize either people or their organizations from the times in which they were operating and expect the parallels made between today and yesteryear to hold.

So go ahead and judge the NRA through a lens of warped history if it gets you NRA haters through another day on the fringes. I "forgive" them of their past "transgressions" because I have little doubt that the heights of liberal power spasms during the New Deal and The Great Society would have eviscerated the Second Amendment into uselessness by now save for the NRA.
 
The author makes some decent points, although most of them are old news to anyone who even bothers to read the NRAs press releases. I also think it is informative for NRA members to understand exactly what the organization is doing. I even appreciate the rehash of the NRA press releases without the positive spin.

Having said that, the post goes overboard with its thesis. It never once addresses the positive things the NRA has accomplished; only the negative things it doesn't like. On top of that it tries to imply a monolithic and continuous policy over a 70 year span of the organization. This isn't too far removed from describing the modern day Republican party's main platform as abolition.

It is disingenuous to compare the NRA of old to the current NRA. The NRA existing at the the time of the 1934 NFA and 1968 GCA was nothing more than a league of competition rifle shooters and didn't even have a political wing.

Boats, You're not grasping the difference between fighting it tooth and nail and failing (something I can respect) and voicing support for it! (Something I will not and cannot condone.)

I'd prefer the NRA not write gun control legislation; but if it is going to be written - they are certainly the group I want doing it. Our political system is built around compromise - if you are strong enough that you don't have to compromise, then you are strong enough that politicians will generally avoid your pet issue.

I think that rather than criticize the NRA for how it played the hand it was dealt in the past, we should concentrate on how to play bad hands better in the future and most importantly - stacking the deck in our favor so we don't have to play bad hands.

The NRA is far from perfect but despite its vocal detractors (all of whom know the one true way to RKBA heaven); I still feel that changing the organization as a member is more likely to be a successful strategy than abandoning the NRA to the right-to-hunt with a single-shot shotgun crowd and trying to build a new organization from scratch.
 
While I agree with some of the comments on "no compromise" from both sides here, I'd like to address something that hasn't been really talked about. Like giving high grades to poor candidates.

It seems to me that the NRA is doing this so they can say "99% of our A-rated candidates were elected". Well that's just dandy, but if the A-rated candidates are antis, can you really call that a "victory"? This is my main beef with the NRA.

-Pytron
 
Pytron-

Did you notice who voted against the gun manufacturers lawsuit protection?

Ron Paul

When the NRA threatened to defund him there was a hue and cry like you never heard before.

Paul said that he didn't think the Federal government should be involved and the NRA said if you don't protect the industry, there won't be any guns to protect.

Can anyone say, Interstate commerce, chilldren? I guess he didn't read that part.

But that's OK, he'll keep cashing checks from that "other" gun group.
 
You didn't reply to my point, which is that the NRA rating system is highly suspect. I think that is pretty well documented.

I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to say about Ron Paul. That the NRA threatened his rating before he voted against legislation he thought was unconstitutional? Yes, so the NRA will downgrade members who don't vote for their legislation SOMETIMES. However, as pointed out in Nicki's article, there are numerous places where high-rated candidates were also endorsed by the antis. Isn't that strange? Doesn't that strike you as backward?

That's what I'm talking about.

Another example is cases where the NRA could endorse a underdog challenger with a good record, but is silent, or even worse, recommends an anti candidate with a better chance of winning.

I'm just saying that their endorsement practices need to be overhauled. They don't have to endorse only "NO COMPROMISE" candidates or anything wacky. Just be more truthful in endorsements and be willing to go out on a limb rather than pick some anti who is doing better in the polls, just so they can say "99% of our A-rated candidates were elected". Care less about that dumb sound-bite and more about the actual race.

-Pytron
 
Ron Paul is THE most pro-gun Congressman in that nest of vipers. He didn't vote against the legislation to screw gun owners, nor did he do it to further his own power. Whether you agree with him or not (I don't, by the way), he did it on constitutional grounds, not because he's anti gun. Meanwhile, the NRA considered dropping him, while keeping conspicuously silent on Bush's promise to sign the AW ban into law. No hypocrisy there?

And yes, I've addressed the NRA's endorsement of less than stellar candidates, including giving the "Defender of Freedom" award to a guy who's very much far from it.
 
Wow! Walk away from the machine for a while and the debate seems to have heated up even more. Don't y'all just love living in a society where we can debate freely? :)

Now we just need to see if we can agree to disagree... politely at least - if not respectfully. ;)

The NRA is far from perfect but despite its vocal detractors (all of whom know the one true way to RKBA heaven); I still feel that changing the organization as a member is more likely to be a successful strategy than abandoning the NRA to the right-to-hunt with a single-shot shotgun crowd and trying to build a new organization from scratch.

Mr. Roberts, I agree. If you feel you can affect change from within then more power to you sir. I however have no history as a member in the NRA, and choose to exercise my option not to become one at this time. I firmly feel my disposable income is better spent on organizations that I find are more effective at achieving my favored political objectives (GOA, GRSC). As for the road to RKBA heaven ... if you have that secret please do share. I'm just sending my money where I see it doing the most good.

... but I am confident that the NRA agreed with the NFA to the extent that they wanted to tune the bill within the framework of knowing it was going to be passed with or without them. A group gets its say by getting in on the process rather than being shunned as outside of it.

Boats - you are correct. It is better to tune an impending evil from within then being at the mercy of its impact without any say at all. However , even in those heady times, I seriously doubt this was the only option.

So go ahead and judge the NRA through a lens of warped history if it gets you NRA haters through another day on the fringes. I "forgive" them of their past "transgressions" because I have little doubt that the heights of liberal power spasms during the New Deal and The Great Society would have eviscerated the Second Amendment into uselessness by now save for the NRA.

Wow again - now we who have doubts about the effectiveness of the NRA can add "NRA Haters" to the growing list of labels some of you are so readily throwing about. I guess those of us who have differing opinions can now officially call ourselves a "fringe Group"? Cool! Wonder if I can get Oleg to make us a T-shirt. Maybe he can make one that will match my tin foil hat. Nicki you want one too?

Ain't seen so much name calling since grade school boys and girls.

Boats - wake up and find your reading glasses son - nobody has stated a hatred for the NRA. Or is it just that any expression of dissent that diverges from your own automatically gets labeled? Pure childishness well below the intelligence level your posts suggest you possess.

What they should have done in the past is not the issue here. What they are doing now is.

Kudos Mr. Keller. Brief, articulate, and on point. Would that we all had that skill.

Folks it's real simple. Nicki's article brought up some serious deficiencies in the NRA's actions. The article was well researched and written. Some of us happen to think that these issues point to a serious deficiency in the current thinking of the organization.

Why don't we all agree to discuss the issues raised and resist the temptation to slam labels on those we disagree with? Everyone on this board is or at least should be much more astute than that.
 
I don't depend on the NRA to educate me about my local congressional candidates. Who does?

Howabout this? I'll concede that the NRA needs to fully explore or explain its endorsement process so as not to mislead the politically lazy into supporting someone they might regret, you absolutists can concede that your ahistorical charicature of the NRA as happy warrior for gun control is mostly fantasy and distortion of the political pressures it was facing.
 
I don't depend on the NRA to educate me about my local congressional candidates. Who does?

You may not. But I do, and I bet a lot of NRA members do too.

I take in to account how the NRA rates my candidates, although they don't have the final word, they can quickly narrow the field of candidates to research. When those ratings are misleading, it does a great disservice to the RKBA movement. I think local groups and GOA have been more accurate in their ratings.

I resent being called politically lazy because I choose to use the NRA ratings as a reference. Let's not stray into the realm of personal attacks. Thank you.

-Pytron
 
I resent being called politically lazy because I choose to use the NRA ratings as a reference. Let's not stray into the realm of personal attacks. Thank you.
pytron - hear hear! Well said!:D

Lots of folks use the ratings as at least a primer. Isn't that what they're for?
 
Wild Bill, I challenge you to square Tempest's circle of condemnation of the NRA. You seem to agree with Mr. Keller that the past of the NRA doesn't matter, only the present. However, it also seems that certain folks are slamming the NRA's past to condemn them for "more of the same" in the present. Which is it? Particularly I cite this passage from the top post of this thread:

The NRA supported the National Firearms Act of 1934 which taxes and requires registration of such firearms as machine guns, short-barreled rifles and sawed-off shotguns.

It supported the Federal Firearms Act of 1938, which regulates interstate and foreign commerce in firearms and pistol or revolver ammunition. It supported legislation to amend the Federal Firearms Act in regard to handguns when it was introduced as S.1975 in August, 1963. Among its provisions was the requirement that a purchaser submit a notarized statement to the shipper that he was over 18 and not legally disqualified from possessing a handgun.

In 1965, the NRA continued its support of an expansion of the above legislation to include rifles and shotguns, as well as handguns.

Additionally the NRA supported the regulation of the movement of handguns in interstate and foreign commerce by:

· requiring a sworn statement, containing certain information, from the purchaser to the seller for the receipt of a handgun in interstate commerce;

· providing for notification of local police of prospective sales;

· requiring an additional 7-day waiting period by the seller after receipt of acknowledgement of notification to local police;

· prescribing a minimum age of 21 for obtaining a license to sell firearms and increasing the license fees;

· providing for written notification by manufacturer or dealer to carrier that a firearm is being shipped in interstate commerce, and;

· increasing penalties for violation.

All of these facts have been carefully and meticulously documented by KeepAndBearArms.com Founder and Executive Director Angel Shamaya in an article entitled, NRA Supported the National Firearms Act of 1934. This excellent and thorough essay details the NRA’s long history of supporting gun control laws, as documented and admitted by the NRA itself in a March, 1968 issue of American Rifleman. Those of you who have the issue, may want to give it a read. Those of you who haven’t, can access the entire article on the KeepAndBearArms.com website via the above link.

Never mind that several of the above are stepping stones to registration of gun owners - which NRA has publicly, repeatedly admitted leads to confiscation. In fact, NRA has raised money to ‘fight against gun registration’ out of one side of their mouth while helping create gun and gun owner registration lists out of the other.

Never mind the absurdity of placing a minimum age on a constitutional right – especially when teenagers can enter the military and use firearms in the defense of our country.

Never mind the pure maliciousness of forcing Americans to wait a week to exercise their constitutional rights!

The issue is: why does an organization which purports to be a major force in defending the right to keep and bear arms actually support infringements on said right?

Let me give you a clue: anytime the government or any other powerful entity speaks of permitting or licensing a right, it should be your wake-up call that said entity does not consider it a right, but rather a privilege – to be approved, licensed and controlled by the government. This is what the NRA supports, according to Wayne LaPierre, “We believe that a lawful, properly-permitted citizen who chooses to carry a concealed firearm not only deserves that right, but is a deterrent to crime. We support the right to carry because it has helped cut crime rates in all 31 states that have adopted it ... with almost no abuse of any kind by the lawful citizens who took the courses, submitted to the background checks, passed the tests and became part of a proud citizens movement that's making America a safer place to live.†(emphasis mine)

Seems the NRA wants to have its cake and eat it too. They want to appear moderate and supportive of “common sense†gun control legislation (cautiously avoiding the fact that the laws they have supported thus far have been an unconstitutional and ineffective farce), but at the same time they would have you believe that they stand in opposition to any attempts to gradually erode your constitutional right to keep and bear arms. Which one is it, NRA? This member would certainly like to know!

Now I think I have made a fairly solid case that things weren't as simplistic as a mere listing of the NRA's "betrayal throughout history" makes it seem. At certain points in history, particular 1934, 1963, 1968, and 1994, there were enormous, almost unimaginable pressures brought to bear against unrestricted gun ownership. Is the seawall that saves you from drowning in a storm surge but allows a hurricane to sweep away your car a total failure and waste of time, effort and money?

Only if you could have killed the storm outright. Otherwise, you have to figure out how to best survive the onslaught.

It is my belief that the first true test of the NRA, as a force for advancing our interests instead of delaying the antis causes, is at hand. The AWB needs to be killed, the NRA will not play games on that, even if the only way to do it is through neglect and giving Bush his electoral pass.

HOWEVER, there is simply not a legislative majority of sufficient strength in this Congress to get into repealing things just yet. Don't get me wrong, I am watching like a hawk that the NRA doesn't play footsie with the antis to help fundraising.

For the first time in my lifetime, the antis are on the ropes. Their traditional advantage in the media is severely eroded. They have been losing elections. They have grown increasingly strident. There are only 400+ Meetup moms networked on the internet despite widespread advertising on the Brady websites and jointogether.org. Many of the meet-up moms are imposters from this board.

So I too am tiring of the NRA being all shield and no sword. It is my belief that if GWB gets a second term and the Republicans can increase their majority in the Senate to kill filibusters, that their true test will come in the next Congress after the AWB is killed. It will be the first time in forever to ask "What next?" To me, that is the leadership crisis they face soon. If 1994 was the highwater mark of gun control, the only place left for the NRA to credibly go is on the attack. Ostensibly, the NRA is at the height of its membership now. The only way to avoid erosion once we have "won" on the AWB, is to start after the rest of the antis pet policies. The most logical next step is gutting the import ban and the 1986 machine gun moratorium. IF that doesn't begin to be the agenda in the latter part of this decade, THEN I will believe they are only in it for the money at the NRA-HQ.

Until then I will give them the benefit of the doubt.
 
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