NRA-ILA letter... reprehensible!

Status
Not open for further replies.
Buzz:

Thanks for your thoughtful response. However, why do that when one can easily join another more forceful organization and bash the NRA? Just kidding...:neener:

So is the NRA powerful or not? You make it sound as though the NRA is castrate and unable to effect change, yet they tell me with just a little more money, they'll show those nasty gun-grabbers the door...which is it. (Wayne is also quick to claim victories in the American Rifleman, I might add.)

You still didn't address the way they tried to muscle in on the Parker case. Although I think you meant that they tried to muscle in for fear that the CATO would screw it up and lose and then where would we be??? I guess right where we were before CATO tackled the beast.

Is it the true 2A/RKBA Lobby or not? Does it support "the right to keep and bear arms" or the "Sporting purposes" rubbish? Why can't they be definative and make that statement? Wouldn't that swell there ranks (and $$$ couffers) with folks like me-and our money? The anits are still going to hate them wether they are nice or not. Take the gloves off....maybe that's too radical. Of course, since the anti's already have them pegged as radiclas (as you stated), why don't they act like it and get something done instead of sqaundering the opportunity they had with a full Republican Gov't?

Why does it seem to need so much money, yet accomplishes (in some opinions) ever so small victories, while the CATO Institute can get Parker done without the power and monster fundraising? If it takes all you said in your post to make the "powers that be" realize they have a problem, then the NRA is truely outdated in its thinking and organization.

You yourself said
Times have been changing as has the legal landscape. I don't think the NRA fully grasped that at the time (and things have changed even after Parker started going forward). But I think it's coming around.
Click to expand...
...so you feel the best way to push this change is grass roots, but within the NRA?

ZeSpectre: I know what I am doing about the RKBA, but I wanted to hear Buzz's thoughts...socratic method and all that jazz...;)

Personally, i belong to the NRA and JPFO, and in addition, I host and sponser Appleseed rifle clinics at my local range. This clinic is geared toward the new sghooter as well as the old and I mix in talk about the 2A with the history of being a rifleman. I also help organize and shoot tactical rifle and IDPA shoots, during which we never let the day pass without some mention of the 2A and what's happening locally as well as nationally.

I write and call my local congressman frequently...I am his 2A thorn in the flesh! (In a nice sorta way)

In addition, I get on the internet and bash theNRA...just kidding
 
This just goes to show what I've been thinking for quite a while is true: that the NRA has lost its vision, and now exists solely for the purpose of self-perpetuation. They will (and have ,repeatedly) cut deals and ignore issues in order to remain relevant, allowing harmful legislation to go through unquestioned or supported in order to give them something to fight against.

It'd have been the same kind of insanity if we'd decided to say, "Hey, this is far enough. Why don't we truck them some food and ammunition?" during WWII when we were just outside Berlin.

How do we fix the problem?
Click to expand...

Get as many people as you can to support GOA, and make note to NRA members what a sham the NRA is at this point in history. The NRA is nothing more than a fear-mongering shell of an organization which tries to cater to both "gun owners" (that is, those with "legit sporting purposes") and the gun grabbers. Anyone who values the 2nd Amendment absolutely is ignored or written off.
 
So the NRA has become a bureaucracy that has as it's foremost goal it's own survival?

I can't imagine that will last very long.
We are a vocal bunch, us gun owners, Second Amendment/RKBA activists, etc.

Make them hear and make them change.

I'm not NRA...I'm a GOA Lifemember.

But it's gonna take all of us to make things right.
 
My answer as to why they tried to muscle has been provided: the case made them and many others not inclined to the go for broke strategy. I don't necessarily agree with their tactics (which aren't at all uncommon in these kind of situations) but I understand them.

As for why work with the NRA, it's simple: it's our only chance for survival. The NRA is effectively the hegemony in terms of the RKBA movement. Hegemonic change either takes extremely long periods of gradual change or war. If you want to make JPFO, GOA or any other groups the "big dog," you either work slowly or you go to war with the NRA. Given the NRA bashing disguised as membership drives for those groups, war seems to be the answer. However, the bloodbath that ensues will see the RKBA destroyed by the time the next group has the political power to step in and start fighting. Then again,

We are currently losing the war because after winning a couple of battles (stopping the AWB renewal efforts, CC reform, and Parker), the RKBA movement is tearing itself apart. The gunbanners are organizing and now have the political advanatage, if they choose to use it. They organize, we disorganize.

Join whatever group you want. Get as many people as you can to join. But stop making it a losing proposition by doing so at the cost of destroying everything your'e fighting for.
 
Given the NRA bashing disguised as membership drives for those groups
Click to expand...

You keep mentioning this, but refuse to discuss the scare tactics disguised as recruiting/fundraising tactics of the NRA (or the get-along-to-go-along with the gun grabbers)?

Maybe continuing this is pointless as we are devolving into tit-for-tat.

I really wanted to see if there was an effective way to make the NRA see they are losing members in their own ranks due to their offensive (to some) fundraising and deal making...

I'll continue to be a member and I always encourage others to join the 2A proponent of their choice, even if it's not exactly mine.
 
"NRA bashing disguised as membership drives for those groups"

Does anyone care to show such things coming from the GOA and/or JPFO? I subscribe to their newsletters and alerts, I don't recall ever getting very much that even mentions the NRA from either. The times where they have mentioned the NRA in a negative light, it was desrved and I wouldn't call being truthful "bashing". But maybe I'm missing this stuff. Anyone care to share?


If we're talking about how individuals not connnected to those groups act, that's a little silly, you can't hold the GOA (or JPFO etc.) accountable for that any more than I can hold the NRA accountable for what Barney Fife the NRA Life Member says at my sportsmen's club.
 
This thread should win an award for the most misinformation by self-proclaimed experts on the net.

No other group comes close to comparing to what NRA is, what NRA does and the impact and influence on government at all levels. And I can't say it loud enough - Not even close. 137 years old, NRA is fully engaged in all aspects of furthering shooting and protecting gun rights and you can't say that about anyone else. No one. Nada. Zip.

NRA understands well that when a case goes before the SCOTUS, there is a WIN side and a LOSE side. They also seem to be about the only ones around that understands when you lose at the SCOTUS, there is NO APPEAL. Remember that horrific joke called Silveira? Sometimes, gun-owners are our own worst enemy.

With siome of the recent decisions that have come out of SCOTUS, I would say there is good reason to not have much trust in SCOTUS. And the court still has 5 perceived liberals on it - methinks Parker should wait, but what do I know?

I want someone here to tell me another gun group where the membership elects the board DIRECTLY. I want siomeone here to tell me about another gun group that holds an annual meeting for it's members where every member can submit resolutions and do the associations business right from the floor. I want siomeone here to tell me about another gun group that is bound by corporate law and has a legal, fiduciary responsibility to it's members. I want someone else here to tell me another gun group where it's leaders have sworn they will go to jail before giving up their members' list. I want siomeone here to tell me about another gun group that provides formal training in all aspects of shooting, even teaching children to stay away from guns they find. I want someone here to tell me about another gun group that works to preserve hunting land, supports the troops, law enforcement and p[lays in every election in the country (be it national or state).

Look at membership - over 3 million in NRA, last I checked the NEXT largest national gun-group is actually quite tiny - GOA with under 100,000 (they try to claim over 100,000 but I don't believe anything they say.) How can you believe GOA or any of the others that bash NRA - THEY ARE 100% UNACCOUNTABLE!!! You can't vote them out, ther3e are no meetings, you have no recourse. WHO IS ON THE BOARD OF THESE FLY-BY-NIGHT GROUPS? How did they get there - WHY are they there?

Groups that bash NRA adopt ridiculously unattainable positions on bills then critisize NRA for not being as hard-line as they are. OF COURSE THEY ARE HARD-LINE - nothing they do matters, no one (in power) cares what they say. First they anger gun-owners, then feed off their wallets.

Need an example? NRA has brought you relaxed CCW in over 40 states now. GOA often opposed those efforts in states like Texas, Michigan and others. WHy? Because it wasn't VERMONT-STYLE carry. Let's see if we have this right - GOA THINKS YOU CAN GO INTO A STATE THAT HAS ZERO CARRY, AND SUCCESSFULLY OBTAIN VERMONT CARRY ALL AT ONCE????

Of course not. They are FUND-RAISING. They are preying on the inexperience and frustration of local gun-owners to get upset that NRA isn't going "for the gusto", when in reality, the "gusto" is not possible. the truth is, GOA doesn't give a rats ass whether anyone gets to carry - THEY WANT YOUR MONEY. They NEED you to believe they are your RKBA savior, and NRA is either incompetent or evil.

GOA's (and JPFO's) latest scam is to spread a bunch of lies about HR 297 int he wake of the VT shooting.

NRA may have tried to beat Parker to the punch with a federal law, but I am CERTAIN there is a good reason, most likely that they don't have faith in Parker to carry the day. NRA worked against that turkey Silveira too, but filed an Amicus Brief in support of it when it looked like it was going to get cert (THANK GOD it never did).

I would turn it around and ask CATO why they went forward with the case if they didn't have NRA's blessing. That's not cool.

Mike
 
NRA is undeniably a great organization and the foremost defender of the second amendment. It deserves support from all gun owners who want to preserve their rights.

Nevertheless this does not deter faithful members from registering disgust over the fund raising methods. I was with a group of senior members who regularly contribute substantial sums to the NRA ILA a couple of days ago. they were complaining about constant, strident fund raising calls from NRA with many of them interrupting meal times.
 
I’m generally an NRA supporter and up until reading this thread, did not at all buy into the notion that the NRA is not defending or more importantly trying to advance the RKBA. I did not know it was CATO that litigated this case and certainly did not know the NRA tried to derail it. I’ve felt for many years that a true 2nd amendment case needs to go before SCOTUS to settle this issue once and for all. Could it be that what the NRA is really afraid of is not a loss in SCOTUS but a win? I have not yet in any way made up my mind that the NRA is holding us back but I’m starting to have some doubts.

CATO donation will be on the way ASAP.
 
Could it be that what the NRA is really afraid of is not a loss in SCOTUS but a win? I have not yet in any way made up my mind that the NRA is holding us back but I’m starting to have some doubts.
Click to expand...

If the Supreme Court ruled that the 2nd Amendment means exactly what it says, the NRA would not go away. If anything, the fight would expand to every state because 1) the 2nd Amendment hasn't been incorporated via the 14th Amendment and 2) just because something is constitutional doesn't mean it can't be changed. Without getting into the topic, abortion has been determined to be constitutional, and the fight over it has, if anything, gotten more heated since that ruling.

What the NRA is afraid of, and why it acts the way it does, is that the Supreme Court was more likely to rule the other way. While some justices have indicated support for the 2nd Amendment, the court as a whole has leaned the other way for a while. Only since Parker started up have we seen things change in the Court going the other way.
 
Only since Parker started up have we seen things change in the Court going the other way.
Click to expand...

I agree, Parker may be the case we've all been waiting for but what concerns me is that if the NRA had their way this thread would not exist. Why is it that the most informed, connected, and powerful gun lobby in the country wanted to back off and retreat from a case that could clearly advance the RKBA? The NRA has succeeded only in slowing the erosion of our rights with decades of lobbying. Then along comes CATO and suddenly we have a good chance of actually recovering our lost rights. It is true we could lose in SCOTUS but if we do not challenge these unconstitutional laws we lose by default. I'm starting to think the NRA will always be of the opinion that now is not the time. If not now when?

I also do not believe in the notion that the RKBA is over if we lose in SCOTUS. I believe this idea is a false argument and is used as a scare tactic to discourage a challenge.
 
Why is it that the most informed, connected, and powerful gun lobby in the country wanted to back off and retreat from a case that could clearly advance the RKBA?
Click to expand...

It could advance the RKBA. Or, it could prove a devastating blow. As I believe I said before, it all depends on how much of a risk you want to take with your rights and the rights of every other person in the US.

I also do not believe in the notion that the RKBA is over if we lose in SCOTUS. I believe this idea is a false argument and is used as a scare tactic to discourage a challenge.
Click to expand...

Believe as you will. Politicians are held back in large measure from the knowledge that many of their vocal constituents believe in the RKBA, regardless of what the pols believe or courts say. Yet, I know many of those same constituents who would accept a Supreme Court ruling that the RKBA doesn't confer an individual right. With that argument defeated, keeping the RKBA alive would be incredibly more difficult.
 
2) just because something is constitutional doesn't mean it can't be changed.
Click to expand...

That is exactly right and it's the reason we should not fear a negative decision in SCOTUS. In fact a loss could spur enough public outcry that a revisit would be an easy win. Think McCain Feingold.


If the Supreme Court ruled that the 2nd Amendment means exactly what it says, the NRA would not go away. If anything, the fight would expand to every state because 1) the 2nd Amendment hasn't been incorporated via the 14th Amendment and
Click to expand...

Yes is do believe the NRA as we know it would go away. This I fear could be the NRA's motive for not making a 2nd amendment challenge. If the Supreme Court ruled the 2nd amendment means what it says it's basically over. Just as the states can't regulate freedom of speech they would not be able to regulate RKBA.



.
 
Yes is do believe the NRA as we know it would go away. This I fear could be the NRA's motive for not making a 2nd amendment challenge. If the Supreme Court ruled the 2nd amendment means what it says it's basically over. Just as the states can't regulate freedom of speech they would not be able to regulate RKBA.
Click to expand...

In defense of Buzz's argument, The ACLU is still around...

Not that I agree with him personally.
 
NRA, CATO, and accountability

For the record: No relation to Buzz_Knox, but I am the son of former NRA 1stVP Neal Knox.

First: Parker was NOT a CATO project! A lawyer who is affiliated with CATO did this on his own; CATO did not fund or support the case in any way.

Second: NRA fundraising tactics have been a bone of contention with many members for a lot of years; this was a major part of the blow-up between my father and Wayne a few years back. The only way to cure it is to refuse to respond.

Third: NRA is not evil compromisers trying to sell-out gun owners any more than GOA, JPFO, SAF, or the Firearms Coalition are greedy nay-sayers simply trying to make a buck off of bashing NRA. There is clearly some greed factor involved in much of what comes out of some of these groups, but beyond the greed, there is a deeply held belief in the RKBA - I personally know almost every major player in the fight and there is not one of them that I think is just in it for the money or power.

Lastly: The only way to assure that the group you support is doing what you want is to be active in the group. Naturally, I endorse the model of involvement with local and state grassroots organizations that believe and behave as you want. When those organizations band together in a coalition (such as The Firearms Coalition for instance) they can bring a unified voice with tremendous power to the debate.

NRA shouldn't raise funds on an issue they opposed. GOA shouldn't make mountains from mole-hills to stir up trouble and raise money. And activists should focus more on local politics and local organizations to get the job done right - and by definition, an activist must be active; writing a check now and then is good, but it can't replace active involvement.

GunVoters Unite!
Jeff
www.FirearmsCoalition.org
 
I would turn it around and ask CATO why they went forward with the case if they didn't have NRA's blessing. That's not cool.
Click to expand...

Why should CATO have to get the NRA's permission to go forward with this?
 
JeffKnox,

Ok, so maybe technically Parker was not a CATO sponsored case but can you explain the NRA's desire to derail it? The only argument I hear from the NRA against pushing a 2nd amendment case to SCOTUS is that we could lose. The fact is if we don't get the Supreme Court to affirm the 2nd as an individual right we have already lost! The so called rights that we are taking a chance with in a SCOTUS challenge are legislatively frozen in time. Just think if we would have settled for no more gun control in the days of muzzle loaders. Do you really think we would have effective means of defense against tyranny with muzzle loaders? We must overturn any and all means for the government to regulate the RKBA as stated in the constitution. Even if we are successful in stopping any additional gun control we have lost. It's only a matter of time.
 
Thank you to MikeHaas and Jeff Knox for saying what so many of us lack the true ability to put so eloquently.
 
The answer is simple: you don't have to stop donating to the NRA, but seriously think about donating to Cato.

Tom Palmer, Vice President at Cato for International Programs, is in fact one of the Parker plaintiffs.

They are a good organization and are without question the most principled pro-liberty think tank and/or lobbying organization inside the beltway. They are a worthy organization to support for those who support the right to keep and bear arms.
 
I'm sick and tired of the NRA bashing. No, they're not prefect, but they're a lot more effective then what's in second place.

IIRC, the reason the NRA did not initially support Parker was because at that time (around 2002-2003) they didn't think we could win at the Supreme Court level. Remember this is 4-5 years ago. They could see who was on the court and count noses/votes. Remember this was the Rehnquist court, with Sandra Day O'Conner as an associate justice. If everyone is nervous now about Parker with Roberts and Alito on-board, think how you feel if they weren't there. That's why the NRA didn't support it, not because they felt that the "gravy train" would end if they got a favorable ruling, the fact was they didn't (and I also don't) think we got have gotten a favorable ruling out of the Rehnquist court. Plus does anyone here seriously think that if we win Parker, that there will be no more attempts by the gun control crowd to push for more gun control legislation. It'll be they're new rallying cry for their fund-raising. Plus, us winning Parker will require more from us and the NRA to rollback the current gun control laws on the books (like New York's and Chicago's), all of which will mean more work (and more fund raising) for the NRA. Win ro lose on Parker, we'll still have a fight on our hands with the anti's and the NRA is our (only) 800 lb gorilla in the upcoming fight.

I'd like to believe that Wayne et al. would like nothing more then for the NRA to become a purely educational and training organization as originally founded. I'd still be a member and donate to the NRA. Now how could this happen??? Because the USSC will say in Parker: "It's an Individual Right, and all gun control laws, bans, registrations, etc. are null and void now and forever, and don't even try to make new ones, 'cause their null and void too. That's goes for the Federal, State and local levels."

One final note. Whenever someone says "The NRA should do blah, blah, blah." I ask if they're a member. If yes, then I tell them "Remember those 'I'm the NRA' ads from a few years back ??? You're the NRA, not Wayne or Charlton or the Nuge, YOU. And if you think it's a great idea, then you make it happen." If they're not a member I tell them to join and then work to make it happen.

Stepping down from my soapbox.
 
Last edited:
Where was CATO when Clinton pushed thru his A-Ban Rifle Bill? Where was CATO when we were working the states to get the CCW Bills passed? What we have here is a bunch of lazy gun owners who have never went out and fought for rights.
If you had been there, you would know it takes lots a money. the other thing you would know its only the NRA who shows up for the fight.:fire:

Endowment Menber
 
Where was CATO when Clinton pushed thru his A-Ban Rifle Bill? Where was CATO when we were working the states to get the CCW Bills passed?
Click to expand...

Probably the same place they were for this case, completely uninvolved. This case was funded by Robert Levy, who happens to be a senior fellow at the CATO Inst. He picked this case VERY, VERY carefully for a number of reasons.

What we have here is a bunch of lazy gun owners who have never went out and fought for rights.
If you had been there, you would know it takes lots a money. the other thing you would know its only the NRA who shows up for the fight.
Click to expand...

+1
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

S
  • Locked
NRA fighting against DC Personal Protection Act?
Replies
2
Views
331
themic
T
X
  • Locked
Evil NRA?!
2 3
Replies
73
Views
3K
Dallas239
D
2
  • Locked
Judge Denies NRA Motion to Consolidate Pro-Gun Lawsuits
Replies
15
Views
767
Shooter 2.5
S
2
  • Locked
CATO Attorneys to NRA: Butt Out!
2
Replies
42
Views
2K
Graystar
G
T
  • Locked
Supreme Court is taking the Heller Case - per NRA email
Replies
0
Views
404
thegriz
T
Back
Top