NYPD Shooting Report

[Tom609]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/25/n...ows-record-lows.html?_r=1&emc=tnt&tntemail1=y

This is an interesting article with a link to the report. It details all shootings by the NYPD in 2010. Some of the info is surprising, such as...

"Last year, 52 officers from the New York Police Department fired a total of 236 bullets during confrontations with suspects. About half of the officers used a two-handed grip on their firearm, as the department encourages, while the others shot one-handed. And in a sign of just how tense these 33 separate shooting episodes were, and how rapidly they unfolded, only one officer reported using the gun’s sight before firing."

Some questionable practices, but LEOs have my respect. It's a tough job and can get nasty quickly.

 

[BCCL]

Of those 236, does it ever say for sure how many hit and missed? I read through it and didn't catch it???

 

[Hypnogator]

only one officer reported using the gun’s sight before firing

This has been my observation in more than 15 years of judgmental use-of-force training experience using firearms simulators. Which is why it is vital to teach point shooting to law enforcement and armed security officers, and anyone else who carries a handgun for defensive use.

The idiots who believe that more training can overcome 50,000 years of evolution plus the physical limitations of human vision under extreme stress.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I've used a handgun twice -- in military combat, not as a cop or a civilian in self-defense -- and used the sights both times.

 

[Grey_Mana]

I wonder if it is a case of "did not use the sights", or "did not report that they used the sights". The doctrine of Less is More refers to the expectation that you might get in trouble for leaving something out, but you'll definitely get in trouble for including details.

To prevent a lawyer from saying "Well, if you had time to use the sights, then...", it seems prudent to not provide any details regarding aiming.

Of course, if I'm shooting at a goblin 6 feet away, I don't need my sights. My arms are 3 feet long, my pistol is a few inches long. The distance from the front sight to the target is myopic.

 

[punkndisorderly]

As for not using their sights, I wonder if they did not use them, or if they didn't remember using them. Peoples memory of a shooting tends to be notoriously bad from everything i've read or been taught. Particularly so if the person is asked right after an incident.

I haven't been in a gunfight, but have been in some hairy situations where the brain/body reacted just as people describe with respect to gunfights (time distortion, tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, etc.)

Each time, I tended to react instinctively based on training or past experience. Afterwards, it was weird hoe my memory tended to focus on a few small things to the exclusion of many others. There are parts that are still vivid today but the majority is like my brain never "recorded" it.

 

[Mikhail Weiss]

They only qualify twice a year in NYC, don't they? If someone shoots only twice a year...

 

[dampoo]

It all depends on which news article you read:

52 shootings with 67 victims and 13 deaths in 3 days during one weekend in 2011.

http://gothamist.com/2011/09/07/nypd_fired_73_bullets_in_brooklyn_s.php

I suspect all reports any more. I depends on the editor of the newspaper.

On the subject of point shooting it is all I practice. During high tension situations people fall back to training and muscle memory. I actually hit a man size target at 25 foot most of the time with pointing the firearm like my finger. Farther than that my be classified as non self defense. The Army taught me one handed shooting 45 years ago and it is how I still shoot.

A friend in the FBI practices every Wednesday and on the occasions have been with him he never misses using the two hand mostly pointing method. He only uses sights when he is in a controlled situation that gives him time for aiming.

Dampoo

 

[Millwright]

Never have been in that situation and pray fervently never to be ! But cops and CCW's have two different objectives/requirements ! The civilian is "shooting to live" ! The cops are "shooting to stop a perp or protect" themselves. A seeming small, but important difference. IOW, IMO cops may have more time to adjust to a "shooting situation" and therefore make use of sights than someone surprisingly accosted !

But as others noted, adrenaline, fear and situation are more dictators of a person's reactions than doctrine created at leisure in a warm comfy office ! IMO a lot depends upon the cops' training level and shooting experience. (I work with a lot of them in NJ and few do more than "qualify" with a service weapon when required. Several with whom I've conversed admit to "not liking guns" ; but are still assigned to "armed rover patrol" in my facility ! ) Then there's the "budget issue", along with "empathletic policing", and all the other "feel good" rules imposed by those not scare sh**less responding to a "hot" call !

I'd say you have to go with what "works for you", but always keeping in mind advice from those whose "been there/done that" credits are gold, always seem to come down to the same thing "Front Sight Focus" ! >MW

I suspect, (from reports I've seen) a lot of "perps" have far more "combat/trigger time" than the officers in pursuit !

 

[Chindo18Z]

The idiots who believe that more training can overcome 50,000 years of evolution plus the physical limitations of human vision under extreme stress.

That would include several thousand USSOCOM combatants who manage to use their sights quite often. This according to the shooter statements (sworn depositions) that we must complete after every armed encounter. Thus far, the success rate is very high...which explains the emphasis placed upon sighted fire in our training courses.

Sound training and stress inoculation can take a person to very high levels of performance. Every fight is not an automatic default to an autonomic nervous system reaction.

 

[hammerklavier]

It's kind of hard not to use the sights on a rifle, especially if they are peep sights or optical.


I wonder how the cops would do if they all had crimson trace lasers? I read that they only land 11% of their shots now.

 

[NAK]

The report briefly describes some of the shootings. In one case, four officers fired 46 times on two men at a Harlem block party; one man died, while the other lived after being struck by 23 bullets.

What's the standard duty weapon in NY?

 

[Ringolevio]

To sight or not to sight

Advocates of point shooting include such notables as Fairbairn & Sykes, Rex Applegate, Bill Jordan, Jelly Bryce and Jim Cirillo.

 

[Mikhail Weiss]

What's the standard duty weapon in NY?

Glock 19.

 

[Mikhail Weiss]

Advocates of point shooting include such notables as Fairbairn & Sykes...

These guys only relied upon point shooting out to 4 yards, as I recall, and any hit, no matter how peripheral, was considered good.

 

[JohnBiltz]

There is a link to the actual report in the article. Rather than go off the article, I'd read the report.

While only one officer reported using his sights, most of them were not asked if they did or did not.

 

[Red Cent]

Get into a competition. You will learn to pick up the sights just as well as point shooting.
If I am confronted with big and close in cowboy, the revolver will never get above the chest. Saves time.
In IDPA and others you would probably lose.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiaPkuPvqSI

 

[mortablunt]

I wonder how the officers are being trained. If military shooters and top level competition shooters can use the sights within very limited timeframes, then the Police ought to be able to do it too. I have a suspicion that the Police are less skilled at shooting than the average civilian gun user.

 

[dprice3844444]

hey,i was shot at once,then i divorced her

 

[Drail]

"I wonder how the officers are being trained.." And there's your problem right there. Their training is pretty sad. I was an NRA Instructor for 5 years and witnessed a lot of LEO qualifications on various ranges and it was unbelievable. Unbelievable. It was actually frightening to be on a live range with some of these guys. Fingers on triggers, muzzles sweeping you constantly, inability to hit any part of a B 27 target beyond 10 yards. City hall doesn't feel that the money required for training and ammunition is justified. I was told this many times. The worst part was all of the officers felt they were extremely competent with firearms.

 

[Ringolevio]

I have a suspicion that the Police are less skilled at shooting than the average civilian gun user.

When I lived in NYC it was said that when a cop had his revolver drawn, the safest place to be was downrange!

Other than the required trips to Rodman's Neck, the average NYPD cop, throughout his career, never drew his gun in the line of duty.

 

[Bobson]

They only qualify twice a year in NYC, don't they? If someone shoots only twice a year...

Just because they only qualify twice a year doesn't necessarily mean they only shoot twice a year.

I'd certainly hope NYPD officers take the time to practice more often than that, but I it's possible that many don't.

I have a suspicion that the Police are less skilled at shooting than the average civilian gun user.

I would say this suspicion is very likely to be totally true. Civilian gun users shoot because they choose to shoot on their own time. Cops may or may not choose to shoot on their own time; and frankly, most departments shy away from hiring so-called "gun nuts." Cops are problem solvers, not infantrymen.

People complain when they see cops acting like the latter. Ironically, people also complain when they see cops acting like the former. The moral here is that people complain about cops, and it usually doesn't matter what the cops are doing at the time. I'm not saying that's what's going on here - I'm just pointing out the fact that cops are always in the spotlight, whether they're doing the right thing, or not.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Interesting stats:

• 208k radio calls involving reports of weapons
• 34.6k officers (no indication how many are actually patrolling rather than behind desks)
• 52 officers involved in 33 instances of intentionally firing on suspects
• 18 shots per firearm (Glock 17)
• 13 officers fired one shot; the others averaged 5.7 shots.
• 8 suspects killed, 16 injured
• 29 additional instances of officers intentionally firing at animals (1 raccoon, the rest dogs)
• 22 "unintentional discharges" (3 while chasing suspects)
• 3 suicides
• 2 "unauthorized" shootings described as "personal disputes"

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

95% of all the LEO's that I know couldn't shoot the broad side of a barn from the INSIDE! I took a select few under my wing and worked with them. Had to teach them muzzle safety and trigger safety. Thats pretty damn sad when you have to teach those 2 things to a person that carries a sidearm at work! And past 10 feet, forget about it. I would have worried about them even at closer ranges under stress. If they couldn't touch the perp with the muzzle, they would have probably missed! Sad Sad Sad. And people expect police, with this pitiful firearms training, to protect THEM? Good luck with that.

 

[mortablunt]

I almost wish I didn't ask. I'd much rather have Comrade Kalashnikov protect me, or Mister Stoner, or Doctor Sergei Mosin, or Herr Mauser.