O/U 16 ga over 7.62 (?) Special Stahl

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spiker44

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I wonder if any of guys know anything about this gun I have It has berlin on the left side of the barrel and a name I could only make out a P. Heil and then two symbols I think. And Special Stahl on the right of the top barrel. It is a 16 ga over what I believe is a 7.62 rifle. Beautiful engraving on what looks like nickel.
Any Ideas?
 
Pictures might help

here are pics i took of the shotgun/rifle only thing i know is Special Stahl just means Special Steel.
 

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You have a gem which is also a bit of a mystery. The stock design, finish, scope mounts and the sling swivels suggest this was made in the 1920's or 30's. The engraving on the receiver looks well done, the finish is most likely NOT nickel but bare steel, so make sure you keep it lightly oiled to prevent rust. The most common rifle caliber is 8x57R ( rimmed ), I doubt it would be in any .30 caliber from this period.

The mystery part is the few markings. Berlin was not a big center for making civilian guns of this type, maybe this is either a name for this model, or the location of the dealer that sold the gun. P. Heil** doesn't ring any bells for a makers name. If you can get better photos of the markings on the underside of the barrels, and maybe on the table of the receiver, the experts could decipher more about it.

Overall a very nice gun in what looks like very good condition, the value could be considerable, don't let a gun store "expert" try and trade you for a plastic-stocked hunkojunk! If you want more information I'd suggest sending your photos to Rock Island Auctions, they have some experts on European firearms.
 
An unusual looking gun, I don't recall seeing a combination gun with octagon barrels before. Proof marks are German, 1912-1939. Never heard of P. Heil and cannot find him online. Possibly a retailer in Berlin rather than a maker.

The "118.35" stamp is the GAUGE of the RIFLE barrel. Comes out to 8.64mm/.340". But that is a BORE measurement which was quickly checked with a plug gauge at the proof house. Might be a 9x57R or a tight 9.3x72R but it will take a barrel slug and chamber cast to tell what round it really takes.

The shot barrel is 16 gauge but for the old standard 65mm (2 9/16") shell. There are a couple of companies making 2.5" shells for such old guns.

It has claw mount scope bases but no scope. It was usual for European hunters to store the gun and scope (or even a Scheutzen rifle's peep sight) separately. When the US Army exercised gun control during the Occupation, privately owned guns were confiscated and either destroyed or passed out as souvenirs. Naturally the ex-owner was not going to volunteer to give away his scope which might well have cost as much as the gun. A new set of rings made to fit an individual gun would be VERY expensive.
 
Thanks guys. I have been trying to find out about this gun using online stuff. It seems to be a missing link or something LOL. I will take your advice. I will try and get some better photos.
 
Going by the caliber marking and the style of the gun, I suspect the rifle barrel is for 8.15x46R, a very popular roebuck and medium game cartridge in Germany at that period. It is comparable to the old .32-40.

8.15x46R was commonly used in drillings, and was also used in Mausers made for sport shooting between the wars when rifles of military 7.9 (8x57JS) caliber were restricted for civilian use.

Jim
 
The "Berlin" is obvious, of course. The name might have been that of a small maker, but could also have been that of a retailer. Retailers buying unmarked guns and putting on their own names was very common in England, Germany, and other countries at one time, and it is still done to some extent. In the U.S., many makers, like Crescent, Savage and even Winchester would put on a retailer's name or trade name if he bought enough guns, which is why we see guns with names like J.C. Higgins and Western Field.

Short of finding a Berlin city directory from 1900 or thereabouts I have no idea how to track the name if it is a retailer or small maker.

Jim
 
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