Odd C&B Revolver Question - multiple balls in a chamber

[drobs]

I was watching a youtube video on that .36 cal Pietta Pepperbox Monstrosity by Hovey Smith. He loads 3 patched round balls into each chamber over 20gr of powder. I'm wondering if I can't get 2 - .44 balls into my 1860 Army.

Anyone try that and is there any danger involved?

Here's the video - skip ahead to around 6 minutes for his loading proceedure.



Question 2 - is it possible or dangerous to load 1 ball over birdshot into an 1860 Army?

 

[Crawdad1]

The difference is the 'Pepperbox' has no barrel and just blasts out from the front of the cylinder. The load isn't being squeezed threw the forcing cone then down the barrel. There is a lot that could go wrong and a lot that could go really wrong so why chance it.

 

[whughett]

No expert here, but can we draw a parallel between loading, say a 410 shot shell with numerous projectiles, ie, shot and larger shot. If both balls are fully seated what's going to happen. No air in space chamber or barrel. Everything's moving at same velocity, until it exits the barrel.

 

[ImperatorGray]

Keep in mind that having more mass in front of the charge means it takes longer for its momentum to increase, meaning the same powder charge will reach a much higher pressure in the chamber.

I'd be very cautious about doing that to a revolver with a barrel.

 

[Curator]

While there are some really good youtube videos about firearms, youtube provided an audience for fools to demonstrate their lack of knowledge and good sense. I'm pretty sure the person who loaded three patched balls in each chamber did not find that in the gun's owner's manual. Holding a potential pipe bomb in one's hand and recording it on video so you can show the world seems a bit daft. Famous last words: Hey y'all, watch this!"

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Keep in mind that having more mass in front of the charge means it takes longer for its momentum to increase, meaning the same powder charge will reach a much higher pressure in the chamber.
I'd be very cautious about doing that to a revolver with a barrel.

Which is why he is loading 3 PATCHED balls (probably .350 balls with a .010 patch) instead of ramming three unpatched, .375 round balls that then swage themselves into the chamber, which is what is the norm for a standard .36 cap-n-ball revolver. He is reducing the friction from the three balls by using patched balls, to probably less friction than that from the conical bullet. BTW I disagree that the conical bullet is the "normal" ball for a .36...the round ball (from what I've read of records from the beginning of the .36 cap-n-ball era) is by far the more used projectile.

Now such a revolver would be (had it existed in that configuration, and there were cap-n-ball revolvers with normal length cylinders documented as being used without barrels for self defense), that load with the longer cylinder and three round ball would make a pretty good SD weapon at handgun distances. So at 10 feet or closer, there is probably enough velocity for those 3 projectiles to get the job done. Might only take one shot to the middle of the adversary's chest.

LD

 

[ImperatorGray]

...to probably less friction than that from the conical bullet...

If I'd been talking about friction, I'd have said "surface area" instead of "mass."

I'm not interested in doing all the math to determine the peak pressures of various inventive loads, but if you're going to try something like this that's exactly what you should be doing.

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

It was common to double or triple load naval cannon back in the sailing age. To reduce the chance of bursting the cannon, reduced powder loads were used with double balls, and extremely small powder loads were used with triple loads that could be used at very close range.
keep in mind those cannon balls were not press fit into the barrel, and it was accepted that there would be failures that would kill the gun crew once in a while.
So when the "Gun Crew" is me, I'd like to get the risk down a bit lower than that.

 

[entropy]

It was common to double or triple load naval cannon back in the sailing age. To reduce the chance of bursting the cannon, reduced powder loads were used with double balls, and extremely small powder loads were used with triple loads that could be used at very close range.
keep in mind those cannon balls were not press fit into the barrel, and it was accepted that there would be failures that would kill the gun crew once in a while.
So when the "Gun Crew" is me, I'd like to get the risk down a bit lower than that.

I do know M1841 gun crews did not like to hear the "Double Canister" command. The grape could come out either end.....but at that point, it was worth the risk. (Meaning the Artillery position was being overrun)

 

[Smokin'Joe]

I regularly shoot two projectiles out of my cap and ball revolvers. It's great fun to see two holes in the target with one shot.

This idea has been used for years with modern .38 cal revolvers.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011/03/24/palm38-tri‐plex-multi-projectile-38-special-cartridge/

https://www.lehighdefense.com/collections/multiple-projectile

 

[drobs]

I regularly shoot two projectiles out of my cap and ball revolvers. It's great fun to see two holes in the target with one shot.

This idea has been used for years with modern .38 cal revolvers.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011/03/24/palm38-tri‐plex-multi-projectile-38-special-cartridge/

https://www.lehighdefense.com/collections/multiple-projectile

Would you mind giving some specifics? What caliber / make gun, what weight ball, what powder charge? Did you use patched ball?

There used to be a 38spl load that had 2 round balls in a casing.

I can't see why similar setup wouldn't work in a BP revolver.

Edited to add: I was actually thinking of a "buck and ball" load. Maybe birdshot on top of a lighter patched ball - keep the total weight to that of a Hornady .454 ball.

Here's some reading on the multi-ball 38spl loads:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/double-ball-for-38-special.476982/

 

[Smokin'Joe]

Drobs, My venture into multi projectile loads in cap and ball revolvers started due to my frugal nature. I like to use the ammo I have on hand rather than buy more. A good example of this is my Palmetto Pocket Navy. https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/palmetto-rescue.776634/ I found myself without proper size .36 cal balls but I had a stock of 00 buckshot (.33 cal). I flattened the buckshot with a small hammer until the diameter was between .375 - .380" I loaded the cylinder off the gun with as much powder as would fit (about 15 grains) and two flattened projectiles. I don't use patches, wads or grease. I do, however, put a couple drops of vegetable oil in each chamber such that it seeps in between projectile and the cylinder wall. I use the vegetable oil on all my cap and ball loads rather than grease. Great Fun!

 

[Jason313]

While there are some really good youtube videos about firearms, youtube provided an audience for fools to demonstrate their lack of knowledge and good sense. I'm pretty sure the person who loaded three patched balls in each chamber did not find that in the gun's owner's manual. Holding a potential pipe bomb in one's hand and recording it on video so you can show the world seems a bit daft. Famous last words: Hey y'all, watch this!"

I recently made a snub nose out of a 1858, barrel is about 3 inches from cylinder to end of barrell, and i was thinking how to make up for the lost time in barell and therefore pressure and velocity, and came up with loading 2 451 balls on 30 grains pyrodex by volume (compresses a lot), no patches or wads, and beesxax over the tops of the chambers. The few shots ive had a chance to try indicate its succesful, the kick of the gun with 40 grains of compressed pyrodex and one .451 round ball, was somewhere slightly higher than a 380 but less than a 38 sp, and now it feels and even sounds a whole lot like my 1911 did firing .45 acp rounds, even heard the sonic crack on a couple shots im pretty sure.

 

[grter]

Wouldn't this be a matter of determining the total weight of the two projectiles and adjusting the powder charge down if necessary to avoid over pressure ?

 

[Venom007]

While there are some really good youtube videos about firearms, youtube provided an audience for fools to demonstrate their lack of knowledge and good sense. I'm pretty sure the person who loaded three patched balls in each chamber did not find that in the gun's owner's manual. Holding a potential pipe bomb in one's hand and recording it on video so you can show the world seems a bit daft. Famous last words: Hey y'all, watch this!"

Hovey Smith is an expert in the field and has many films on YouTube and is a vaunted and respected firearms author.

I think he knows what he is doing quite frankly.

 

[expat_alaska]

Famous last words: Hey y'all, watch this!"

You forgot to add "and hold my beer!".

Jim

 

[Eyrie G. Dogg]

"I think he knows what he is doing quite frankly."
I don't.

Hovey Smith, is it? Well geez, I don’t think so. Two balls plus a detonator down the bore of my beautiful guns? Nope. I ain’t a gonna do it; that’s not a part of my life. We can tie one of your guns to a tree and try it out, but not with mine.

I’ve shot triplex loads, not often, but it’s happened. Unlike balls these fit together and come out as one unit and aren't playing pool with each other. Seventy grains each for a total of 210.

 

[rodwha]

"I think he knows what he is doing quite frankly."
I don't.

Hovey Smith, is it? Well geez, I don’t think so. Two balls plus a detonator down the bore of my beautiful guns? Nope. I ain’t a gonna do it; that’s not a part of my life. We can tie one of your guns to a tree and try it out, but not with mine.

I’ve shot triplex loads, not often, but it’s happened. Unlike balls these fit together and come out as one unit and aren't playing pool with each other. Seventy grains each for a total of 210.

View attachment 799366 View attachment 799368

Interesting. More info please. I’m a bit curious what the use would be and what you see on target.

Quite frankly I don’t see the usefulness of a few patched balls traveling quite slow I’d assume. Seems one at a more descent velocity would be more useful. But then I don’t see a pepperbox being all that useful anyway I guess.

 

[Eyrie G. Dogg]

More info please. I’m a bit curious what the use would be and what you see on target.

Those were a gift from a very knowledgeable member here and at 1858 Remington (he has not posted here for a couple of years). His idea was for taking snap shots at Jacks. He used 20 grains 3f, I use 25. Have to load one at a time. No lube between the cone shaped tuna cans or it will behave as a conical. The pattern is about 12” at 15 yards with .44 eight inchers. Much tighter than I had anticipated.

 

[rodwha]

Those were a gift from a very knowledgeable member here and at 1858 Remington (he has not posted here for a couple of years). His idea was for taking snap shots at Jacks. He used 20 grains 3f, I use 25. Have to load one at a time. No lube between the cone shaped tuna cans or it will behave as a conical. The pattern is about 12” at 15 yards with .44 eight inchers. Much tighter than I had anticipated.

Interesting. I’m surprised they spread so much. Do any strike near POA?

I was curious what one would use them for as they would no doubt be lacking in SD for any real penetration. But then not everything has a hunting purpose I suppose.

Any idea what they weigh?

 

[Eyrie G. Dogg]

They hit within 6" of POA with a 12" spread at 15 yards but pepper the target without anything in the black, if i'da had a black.. Like I said, they weigh 70 grains for a 210 grain total. I've shot big pieces of scrap redwood lumber (hard stuff) and they penetrate about an inch at 15 yards with 25 grains of Swiss 3f, which surprised me. At first, I was lookin for them to bounce, but no, they sunk in pretty good.

I wounded a big lopping jack with them once at about 20+ yards, he lit out so I don't know how bad he was shot or how many times - which is no fun, I don't care to wound an animal that I can't trail down and finish. Of course I (or most anyone here) could have easily nailed him square if it were ball.

 

[Jason313]

Interesting. More info please. I’m a bit curious what the use would be and what you see on target.

Quite frankly I don’t see the usefulness of a few patched balls traveling quite slow I’d assume. Seems one at a more descent velocity would be more useful. But then I don’t see a pepperbox being all that useful anyway I guess.

remember not everyone uses their BP guns for just paper punching or hunting. Multi ball loads were common practice back in the day, for defense purposes. As long as the balls touch, its all good.

 

[Jason313]

"I think he knows what he is doing quite frankly."
I don't.

Hovey Smith, is it? Well geez, I don’t think so. Two balls plus a detonator down the bore of my beautiful guns? Nope. I ain’t a gonna do it; that’s not a part of my life. We can tie one of your guns to a tree and try it out, but not with mine.

I’ve shot triplex loads, not often, but it’s happened. Unlike balls these fit together and come out as one unit and aren't playing pool with each other. Seventy grains each for a total of 210.

View attachment 799366 View attachment 799368

those are neat id love to know more! fyi the pepperbox is smooth bore, little shotguns basically, multi ball loads were done all the time in their day, rifled one has to be more careful, but when touching the balls behave as one object.

 

[rodwha]

remember not everyone uses their BP guns for just paper punching or hunting. Multi ball loads were common practice back in the day, for defense purposes. As long as the balls touch, its all good.

That was in a long arm though. I’m not aware of that being done in a handgun. And that’s not to say it can’t be done.

With how thin and light those are I’d be curious how much penetration one might get on average, and what kind of damage they might do. Be interesting to see it in ballistics gel.