Odd Fliers With AK-74

[Cosmoline]

I've been unable to find any answers to this one so I'm tossing it out here. I've got a nice Waffen Werks AK-74 and just mounted a Rakurs 1x scope on it. Everything seems just fine with it. The scope is properly tight and very clear. I noticed a pattern over the weekend of nice centered groups followed by fliers both left and right. This would happen even shooting from the bench semi-rested on a wood block. I'd have a string of four or five right on the bull, then an inconsistent spray of fliers on either side.

I thought it might be some kind of weird scope wiggle due to the side mount, but nobody else seems to have the problem

Then I got to thinking--the trigger was customized by the fellow who owned it before me and is MUCH more sensitive than I am used to. So without realizing it, I suspect I may be mistiming my shots. In other words I've gotten used to a few extra pounds of pull and when it just goes off I'm not quite in position, but it's too subtle to notice at the time. Seem possible?

If not, any other ideas?

 

[allaroundhunter]

With practice you'll be able to "call" your shots. You'll know when the shot broke, exactly where the crosshairs were and will be able to call where that round went before ever seeing the target.

I can't say whether the gun is firing before you're ready or not, that is something that only you know.

But, is it possible that the barrel is heating up and the group is opening up because of that?

 

[HorseSoldier]

Consistently throwing them to the right or left sounds like it isn't keyholing from a bad barrel (which, besides the obvious keyholing, scatter plots the hits from what I've seen as well), and doesn't sound like inconsistent quality control on Eastern European ammo.

Can you pull the scope and see what it does with the irons? That should at least isolate whether it is scope/scope mount related.

 

[itsa pain]

why someone would over lighten a trigger on any gun especially an AK is beyond me. to me a light trigger is overated and semi dangerous. I remember before anyone knew about the savage accuracy in the late 80's I owned many of their heavy barrels. you needed a come along to pull the trigger had to be 8-10 lbs and yet we shot tiny groups. the best trigger for me is a standard two stage trigger on M1A

 

[stubbicatt]

Is your brake wobbly or is it snugged down?

 

[cat_IT_guy]

I wonder about barrel heating, too. How quickly are you shooting your groups? Also, how far out are your fliers? I mean, if your first 5 are holding within a 2" circle around the bull, then all of the sudden shot #6 is 6" to the side, I'd certainly suspect something mechanical (trigger/brake/scope). Whereas if the shots are only a bit outside the rest of the group and gradually moving, I would lean more toward something like barrel heating.

 

[benEzra]

AK's have a lot of barrel vibration/harmonics going on due to the heavy, big-bore offset gas piston. My SAR-1 always seemed to shoot better from a soft rest than a firm one, and if possible putting the support under the front of the receiver ahead of the magazine seemed to work better than supporting it on something firm under the barrel/forend. You might also try shooting it from prone, supported by your arm only, and see if you get the same kind of fliers.

It could also be minuscule play in the mount or the siderail itself, though, though, if you rule everything else out.

 

[Fishbed77]

Whereas if the shots are only a bit outside the rest of the group and gradually moving, I would lean more toward something like barrel heating.

My thoughts as well. AKs typically have pretty thin barrels, and their inherent design (big gas tube/block with piston, handguard retainers) allows outside influences on that barrel (as opposed to a free-float barrel).

 

[greenlion]

Use a process of elimination. Take the scope off first and see if the flyers continue to show up. Change ammo if you can to see if it happens with another brand or two. Have a friend shoot it to see if it is you. Then you will know it must be the gun. Try shooting every shot out of cool barrel over a period of time, that way you'll know if its barrel heating.

 

[HB]

Using a wood block for a rest is my guess.

HB

 

[adelbridge]

most likely suspect would be the ammo you are shooting. I would not expect match grade results with surplus ammo. What you are describing would be par for the course with aged steel case russian ammo.

 

[Cosmoline]

I should have noted I've used the two kinds of 5.45 available--surplus ball and Silver Bear. The SB is better but both give similar fliers.

Is your brake wobbly or is it snugged down?

On the final click it's somewhat secure but not as tight as I'd like. It would be easy enough to shim it snug.

I'll also try shooting from a soft rest.

And I also found some of the stock screws were getting loose, so those are loctited down now.

Saturday I'll fire for effect. Thanks for the ideas!

 

[itsa pain]

most likely suspect would be the ammo you are shooting. I would not expect match grade results with surplus ammo. What you are describing would be par for the course with aged steel case russian ammo.

exactly. these are not match guns anyway. get some brass case ammo like privy and shoot it with iron sites. if your eyes are bad let a young guy shoot it

 

[BCRider]

Shooting my Mosins with milsurp ammo produces the same situation. One in 5 doesn't even land on the paper. And the rest produces at best 8 to 10 inch groups at 100 yards. I then put a box of Privi ammo thru the gun and the groups instantly shrunk to around 3 to 4 inches.

The quality and consistency of the bulk milsurp stuff is pretty questionable. I'd suggest that putting a scope on any rifle that is used to dispense milsurp ammo is more or less like putting a party frock on a pig. It's not the rifle's fault, the scope's fault or the pig's fault. It's what you're feeding it.

To test this give your AK a good cleaning and treat it to a box or two of better quality ammo such as Privi or some other proper and mainstream name brand. I'll bet it responds by making the scope a worthwhile feature to produce nice consistently tight groups.

EDIT: Does the Silver Bear just look like re-packaged milsurp ammo? I ask because I got a box of ammo given to me and I seem to recall it having a picture of a bear on the cover. When I opened it up it was a paper wrapped bundle of old milsurp 7.62x54R straight from a SPAM can. I sighed and chuckled and tossed the outer box and dumped the pack into my open SPAM can of milsurp.

 

[BluegrassDan]

Using a wood block for a rest is my guess.

HB

+1. Agreed

 

[Cosmoline]

Silver bear seems to be new production, and does shoot better groups than the surplus. Both are showing these weird fliers, both with the scope and with irons. Hopefully now that everything is tightened down it will resolve itself. Otherwise it's likely to be barrel issues and impossible to solve without putting a heavy barrel on there.

 

[Sam Cade]

On the final click it's somewhat secure but not as tight as I'd like. It would be easy enough to shim it snug.

Pull it off, shoot some groups and see if it makes any diff.

 

[M1key]

I agree with soft rest. Especially with an AK.

Or at the very least, slip your hand up under the foreend.

M

 

[Cosmoline]

I thought I'd give an update on this issue. After banging my head against the wall, I realized suddenly that the answer was incredibly obvious--parallax. Because of the chin weld, my head was bobbling esp. after the first few shots. So at 100 yards I'd get very tight groups, then suddenly odd "fliers" in a circle shape around the tight group. Of course, *I* was the odd flier here. Nothing wrong with the scope. I've since put a pad on the AK folding frame and will double check tomorrow but I'm 90% sure I've discovered the issue. Go figure. Didn't know 1x's had parallax but apparently they do. Not enough to miss, but enough to break up the group some.

 

[wally]

IMHO shooting for groups off a bench rest with an AK is a fools errand. Search youTube for some slow motion X-ray video of AK in action and its amazing they shoot as well as they do. Accurate enough and reliable as can be was the goal.

Steel cased ammo that is 4-6 MOA in an AK off sandbags is 2 MOA in a decent AR.

 

[Sam1911]

TH -74s will make a fool of ya then! It isn't uncommon for them to do 2" or better at 100 yds with surplus 7n6 ammo and iron sights.

There are tricks to it though. Basically you have to accommodate the fact that the rifle was designed for a style of shooting that doesn't look much like sitting at a bench with the rifle in a rest. Getting them really stable and getting a really careful and repeatable sight picture takes more effort and care than a Remlinchester bolt action.

 

[Cosmoline]

Well we shall see tomorrow. If it still bucks me, then it's got to be the rifle. I've checked and rechecked scope and mount. So it's either something my head is doing or the rifle is tossing rounds due to some ak-related weirdness.

 

[Fremmer]

Perhaps the trigger wasn't done correctly and it is causing the problem - not consistently breaking the same way each shot. Maybe use a trigger gauge 10 times and see how much deviation exists.

 

[dvdcrr]

Out of the dozen or so aks I have owned maybe one or two didnt throw strange fliers.

 

[Cosmoline]

Well it's not parallax LOL

I got a slightly better group with a cheek weld, but it was still doing the same weird grouping. I suspect the only way to control this would be to handload, and that's currently not easy with 5.45x39.

In the mean time it's a perfectly fine AK, it just taunts me with suddenly excellent groups that then turn to the usual 3" mush.