Of discretion and licensing

[zminer]

In NY state, you need to obtain a license to own a handgun, and every time you want to buy or sell a handgun, you need to file a form for an official amendment to your pistol license. This form gets reviewed by your licensing officer (a judge), and s/he can either approve it or deny it. Obviously, the purpose of this is to allow for discretion - judge can do anything from approve it instantly, to call you into court and ask you to explain yourself. The latter is what happened to me earlier this week.

Flash back for a moment to a month ago, when I got my license initially. The judge swore me in, asked me a couple of questions, flipped through my application, and then told me that everything looked good and that she'd be issuing a ruling in a few days. I was standing in front of her for a maximum of four minutes.

Flash forward to this week: The court called me in to appear in regards to my amendment adding a Ruger Mark III to the license. When I got there, though, it was a different judge than my licensing officer, and this judge grilled me about my application. She looked through all of the paperwork for several minutes, asking questions about me, the contents of my application, and what I would be doing with the gun. Her biggest problem was with the fact that I had known my references for "only" three years. I explained that I moved to the county three years ago, and all references must be from in-county, and so three years was the maximum possible amount of time I could have known them. She later granted that although she was concerned that I had known my references for such a short time, this explanation was "acceptable to the court." (This despite the fact that the application states you are only required to have known your referees for a minimum of one year.) She finished by saying that she would grant my request, and that I would receive notice in the mail.

So, my question is this: does discretion have a place at any level of the process of obtaining firearms? There is a thread going now where people are arguing about a gun store owner's right to refuse to sell a firearm, but for some reason I think people will be less likely to think that the government should have that right as well. What's the difference, if there is one?

 

[Kragax]

Really strange. I the western part of the state we don't go in front of the judge for anything. I can add or delete guns at will, I just have to go to the pistol permit clerk and pay 3.00 per transaction. Im glad I live here its probably the easiest part of NYS for gun owners. Once you have your permit, which doesn't envolve appearing anyplace, you can pretty much do what you want.

 

[dogmush]

does discretion have a place at any level of the process of obtaining firearms? There is a thread going now where people are arguing about a gun store owner's right to refuse to sell a firearm, but for some reason I think people will be less likely to think that the government should have that right as well. What's the difference, if there is one?

A Government doesn't have rights.

If I don't want to sell you my weapon (or anything else) that's my right. Same with the gunstore owner. That's where discretion comes in.

A government doesn't have the right, and shouldn't have the ability, to interfere in a private transaction it wasn't otherwise involved in.

 

[Treo]

I want to know what happens if at some point down the road a given judge denies your permit. What happens to the guns you already own?

 

[romma]

Awful sounding.. How nice of the judge to accomodate you... Serf! Hopefully this nonsense will stop with incorporation...

 

[zminer]

I want to know what happens if at some point down the road a given judge denies your permit. What happens to the guns you already own?

To my knowledge, the licensing officer (in this case, a judge) can revoke your license for pretty much any reason. If this happens, I really don't know what becomes of the firearms you already own. I think I remember correctly that if you move to NY State and you don't have a license (which I believe is true of everyone who moves here from out of state, since the state doesn't issue out-of-state licenses and doesn't recognize other states' licenses) the police will take possession of your handguns until such time as you obtain a license. I think there's a limit on the amount of time they'll hold them, but I could be wrong about that. So, I assume that's also what happens if your existing license is revoked ... but, again, I don't know for sure.

 

[Kragax]

If your license is revoked for any reason a nice sherrifs deputy will come to your house and take all the firearms listed on your permit. It is best to then sign them over to a friend that has a permit who can the take posession of them until such time as you get your permit back, or he can sell them for you. If they end up in the lockup all bets are off as guns get "lost", mistreated ect.After a cetian (???) amount of time they are melted down. I live very close to the PA line where I also have a carry permit. I would just take mine to PA and put them in a safety deposit box until I could figure out what to do.

 

[Stover954rr]

Zminer, I hear you on this one. I moved out of county 8 months ago, but haven't officially changed my address yet so that I can keep my long time references. Its pretty sad. Where in NY are you? I am from Dutchess county.

Oh another great thing... no: judges, LEO, or Family members for references either (rolls eyes)

I also love how you have to make 3 trips back and forth to the sheriffs office and gun shop just to add a gun to you license. They just try and make it so difficult that you wont want to do it.

 

[ArmedBear]

Ah, the fearsome 22/45, capable of firing 10 rounds of armor-piercing High Velocity .22LR without reloading! Its ultralight weight of 2 lbs., and with its easily-concealable full-size grip and large frame, and a mere 9 1/2" overall length, it's such an ideal choice for street crime!

 

[BBQLS1]

I'm really sorry y'all have to deal with that.

 

[ZeSpectre]

There's yer "reasonable restrictions" in action.
Move to Virginia
1) We don't have that nonsense
2) We are active in fighting to make sure it doesn't show up here.

Ex-New Yorker and gonna stay that way.

 

[zminer]

If I don't want to sell you my weapon (or anything else) that's my right. Same with the gunstore owner. That's where discretion comes in.

A government doesn't have the right, and shouldn't have the ability, to interfere in a private transaction it wasn't otherwise involved in.

This is true to a certain extent, but to briefly take the position of devil's advocate, the government does take a role in regulating some aspects of our personal lives, in the interest of the public's safety. For example, you need to obtain a burn permit before you can torch a big brush pile. And firefighters (agents of the government) can question you about whether you've taken adequate precautions to be able to handle the responsibility of carrying out a burn. If they feel you're unprepared (no hoses, no fire extinguishers, no shovels) or have bad judgment (you've put the burn pile right next to a dry forest) then they can choose not to issue a permit.

Now, obviously they're really different things, but I pose the same question to everyone: Should there be any role for government discretion in the process of private citizens obtaining firearms? (By "discretion," I mean that some agent of the government gets the opportunity to review purchases in depth before they are completed ... above and beyond a background check, since that isn't really discretion - it's just checking to see if you meet explicit criteria.)

Where in NY are you? I am from Dutchess county.

Albany County. I believe we are one of the most restrictive counties in the state in terms of firearms licensing.

 

[M1911]

So, my question is this: does discretion have a place at any level of the process of obtaining firearms?

It shouldn't. But, unfortunately, many lawmakers disagree.

 

[larry_minn]

Sorry to hear it. Thing is crap like that is sneaking up in more areas. They slide it on at the end of a "sure thing" And it holds. MN ccwp law that was KNOWN and debated for weeks as part of (IIRC) a DNR bill passed with ease. So groups complained it was "tacked on" and they had to pass it seperate. But sticking unwanted laws on positive bills at last minute (where even folks voting on it have no idea) is common.
My understanding is in MN you can't buy a AR without a permit??? You want a 30 06 fine. a shotgun "your good" but a "black rifle" (not sure what all are considered in it) and you need a permit. (pistol permit/carry permit qualify I understand)

 

[ArmedBear]

BTW I love my 22/45. You'll enjoy it a lot, when this is all over with.

 

[Larry E]

Geez, sorta makes me even happier that I don't live in NY, although I have driven through the eastern part of it a time or two in a former life. Let's see the US Constitution says that the "right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed", so how does a permit to possess firearms or not infringe or not.

I wonder when the "news media" will have to start registering their computers &c.

 

[mgregg85]

That really sucks. We should try to get stuff like this changed.

 

[M1911]

That really sucks. We should try to get stuff like this changed.

In states like NY and MA, the unfortunate reality is that most of the voters are anti-gun. The local state gun owners' associations have been working for years for us, but they are fighting a rear-guard action -- it is a very successful year when they prevent further tightening of the gun control laws.

 

[Standing Wolf]

Where does it say all that in the Second Amendment?

 

[tigre]

You have to have references to buy a gun? And answer questions from a judge? I feel sick just reading that.

A Government doesn't have rights.

+1000. There is a vast difference between the owner of a piece of property refusing to sell it to a particular person and a government agent preventing a citizen from exercising a Constitutionally protected right.

This is true to a certain extent, but to briefly take the position of devil's advocate, the government does take a role in regulating some aspects of our personal lives, in the interest of the public's safety. For example, you need to obtain a burn permit before you can torch a big brush pile. And firefighters (agents of the government) can question you about whether you've taken adequate precautions to be able to handle the responsibility of carrying out a burn. If they feel you're unprepared (no hoses, no fire extinguishers, no shovels) or have bad judgment (you've put the burn pile right next to a dry forest) then they can choose not to issue a permit.

Self defense is a natural right that is protected from encroachment by the government in the Constitution. Burning brush piles is not in the same category. Not even close.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

This is true to a certain extent, but to briefly take the position of devil's advocate, the government does take a role in regulating some aspects of our personal lives, in the interest of the public's safety. For example, you need to obtain a burn permit before you can torch a big brush pile. And firefighters (agents of the government) can question you about whether you've taken adequate precautions to be able to handle the responsibility of carrying out a burn. If they feel you're unprepared (no hoses, no fire extinguishers, no shovels) or have bad judgment (you've put the burn pile right next to a dry forest) then they can choose not to issue a permit.

Self defense is a natural right that is protected from encroachment by the government in the Constitution. Burning brush piles is not in the same category. Not even close.

Nicely done.

 

[jrfoxx]

So, my question is this: does discretion have a place at any level of the process of obtaining firearms?

IMHo, No, it doesnt have ANY place at all. At most, set a standard set of requirements in law, and leave it at that. There should be no discretion with individual judges, CLEO's, or Sheriff's, IMHO. Too much room for abuse.

 

[Mt Shooter]

I wonder when the "news media" will have to start registering their computers

+1

Seems like a lot of hoops to have to jump through. But of course this means there is "0" gun crime right.

Wish you luck

 

[toivo]

You have to have references to buy a gun?

Actually, no, but you do have to have references to get your permit in the first place. And since you need all your handguns to be listed on your permit and signed off by a judge, the judge theoretically can deny you the right to add another gun to your permit. A lot depends on the sitting judge. Some of them just routinely sign all the purchase permits that cross their desks, but some judges get a bug up their butt and start to throw their weight around on every purchase permit. We had a local judge try to tell an applicant that he "had too many guns already."

I haven't heard of any judges actually trying to outright revoke a permit for no reason. (Doesn't mean it hasn't happened, but I've never heard of it.) Felony convictions would certainly be grounds. I don't know about orders of protection and the like. But arbitrarily, with no reason given, would most likely end up in a lawsuit.

 

[Mickstix]

Wow, and I thought the 3 day waiting period in FL. was BS.. Sheesh..