Off endangered list, wolves face new pressure from hunters
- Thread starter funnybone
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I'll post the numbers again.
According to Pat McCoy (see post #80 above), there is an expected increase of 500 wolves per year.
In the article, 37 had been killed in the past month.
37x12= 444.
So, for all the whining about them being hunted into extinction and wiping out the population, the current rules seem to indicate that the wolf population will continue to grow, but at a much slower rate.
Unless there is a serious upswing in the number of wolves killed under the current rules, this does appear to be the correct means of controlling them.
Vicious-Peanut
Member
I understand, but with them being allow be hunted as varmints or pest it is likely to get out of hand. If they can make it work as they have it now with just keeping the population steady then it seems to be OK.
The wolves that run in Idaho are not native, have successfully eradicated what small population of native wolves we did have and IMO should be shot on sight till there are no more.
Unfortunately that is illegal so we have to wait for a tag, but shot on sight suits me and probably 95% plus of Idaho hunter/outdoorsmen. I see it here on the net but NEVER have I yet spoken with another Idaho outdoorsman that thinks Canadian wolves belong here.
Ya'll take care of where your from and leave Idaho to Idahoans and we'd all be better off. Same holds for any Western State infected with this wolf nonsense.
Some one from Wis. or NC. or where ever spouting what otta be done here with wolves makes as much sense as someone from Boise telling the folks in Fla. how to manage Alligators.
Unfortunately that is illegal so we have to wait for a tag, but shot on sight suits me and probably 95% plus of Idaho hunter/outdoorsmen. I see it here on the net but NEVER have I yet spoken with another Idaho outdoorsman that thinks Canadian wolves belong here.
Ya'll take care of where your from and leave Idaho to Idahoans and we'd all be better off. Same holds for any Western State infected with this wolf nonsense.
Some one from Wis. or NC. or where ever spouting what otta be done here with wolves makes as much sense as someone from Boise telling the folks in Fla. how to manage Alligators.
Rook rifle
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eliphalet
I for one agree with you these CANDIAN Wolfe's are just plain mean they are top of the food chain in this country and why your government wanted them in the first place is still mystery when they could have handed out hunting tags for the elk.
I for one agree with you these CANDIAN Wolfe's are just plain mean they are top of the food chain in this country and why your government wanted them in the first place is still mystery when they could have handed out hunting tags for the elk.
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
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Can I just ask, WHAT is a "cement deer" or "cement deer story"? Thanks.
The wolves should be hunted/managed just like every species in a state with a responsible wildlife dept with responsible game policies. The tags should be limited to that amount appropriate to keep the numbers at the desired levels. The desired levels should be established by the dept. with a starting point of wildlife biologist opinions, with input from the public. *IF* the responsible level is open season all year round like nuisance species (yotes, feral hogs, etc), then so be it. *IF* that level is "X" number of tags issued per year, then so be it. Likely it should not be the former, but rather the latter, since the animal just came off of the endangered list. Their numbers should definitely be checked however, not only for the ranchers' sake, but also for the hunters, to keep ungulate species herd numbers up - this is good for hunters and good for the wildlife dept's revenues. The wolf can still survive in nature as they once did for thousands of years (albeit in a lower ratio). It's win-win-win. This was the right call. But unlimited hunting, no probably not. Fortunately, the hunting WILL become limited soon enough, if/when the numbers start drastically falling. The states have a VERY STRONG interest in limiting hunting, so that the FEDs won't once again put them back on the endandered list, which then screws up the ungulate herds and makes hunting license revenue fall. This market system will ensure that the states properly and fairly regulate the hunting numbers.
Poachers/smoachers - these losers will do their thing no matter what, but they are a small percentage of the hunters. - most people are law-abiding, so wildlife dept policies DO dramatically affect results. Enforcement levels do need to remain high enough to keep the honest people honest.
The wolves should be hunted/managed just like every species in a state with a responsible wildlife dept with responsible game policies. The tags should be limited to that amount appropriate to keep the numbers at the desired levels. The desired levels should be established by the dept. with a starting point of wildlife biologist opinions, with input from the public. *IF* the responsible level is open season all year round like nuisance species (yotes, feral hogs, etc), then so be it. *IF* that level is "X" number of tags issued per year, then so be it. Likely it should not be the former, but rather the latter, since the animal just came off of the endangered list. Their numbers should definitely be checked however, not only for the ranchers' sake, but also for the hunters, to keep ungulate species herd numbers up - this is good for hunters and good for the wildlife dept's revenues. The wolf can still survive in nature as they once did for thousands of years (albeit in a lower ratio). It's win-win-win. This was the right call. But unlimited hunting, no probably not. Fortunately, the hunting WILL become limited soon enough, if/when the numbers start drastically falling. The states have a VERY STRONG interest in limiting hunting, so that the FEDs won't once again put them back on the endandered list, which then screws up the ungulate herds and makes hunting license revenue fall. This market system will ensure that the states properly and fairly regulate the hunting numbers.
Poachers/smoachers - these losers will do their thing no matter what, but they are a small percentage of the hunters. - most people are law-abiding, so wildlife dept policies DO dramatically affect results. Enforcement levels do need to remain high enough to keep the honest people honest.
We had wolves running near our ranch and actually had very few problems with them. Feral dogs and coyotes were another situation. I would only shoot one if it were a demonstrated danger to livestock. Last check, there were no documented cases of wolf attacks on humans in North America so I wouldn't worry to much about that.
Take a look here,
http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=b7ce5200-166b-4eb3-b9c8-f3e77d532874
Better check again.
http://www.aws.vcn.com/wolf_attacks_on_humans.html
They play heck on dogs besides domestic stock and are upsetting what fragile balance man has been able to create in the 19th century from the devastation that was left us from the 18th.
I have read of areas in Idaho where hound hunters are drastically reduced from dog losses to wolves. Some folks not far from here lost their family dog when it was let out at 7 AM.
A woman came into my wifes work place telling of wolf tracks found so frequently near her and others homes, that they and others will not let their children out after dark. She lives in a small town of 1000 folks or so, not out in the boonies away from civilization. Would you like that in your neighborhood?
My neighbor went to help with elk retrieval last fall only to find a pack of wolves on the caucus upon their return.
Wolves are not the mystical/magical creatures the media has led us to believe they are a vicious predator, a real problem that man had found the solution to years ago.
Sadly those history lessons were forgotten.
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Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
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"Can I just ask, WHAT is a "cement deer" or "cement deer story"? Thanks."
Anyone?
Anyone?
The Tourist
member
The DNR in Wisconsin try to arrest violators and poachers by catching them in the act.
They set up rather sophisticated "robot deer" in areas where it is illegal to shoot. While the robot deer move quite realistically, I guess in past times the fake deer they used were made from cement, like lawn ornaments.
You have to see the film footage to truly understand just how painfully stupid these guys really are. I'm actually surprised these guys haven't tried to field dress the fake deer.
They set up rather sophisticated "robot deer" in areas where it is illegal to shoot. While the robot deer move quite realistically, I guess in past times the fake deer they used were made from cement, like lawn ornaments.
You have to see the film footage to truly understand just how painfully stupid these guys really are. I'm actually surprised these guys haven't tried to field dress the fake deer.
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
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Well, do you have a link to said film footage? What do they do, try to hit the cement deer with their vehicles? That might be funny.
Our wildlife dept does this too, but just with decoy deer, not robot deer - I should think that the robot deer are quite expensive to maintain after being shot with a high powered rifle by poachers - and if the guy doesn't shoot, then you don't have a case against him.
Our wildlife dept does this too, but just with decoy deer, not robot deer - I should think that the robot deer are quite expensive to maintain after being shot with a high powered rifle by poachers - and if the guy doesn't shoot, then you don't have a case against him.
Only to be ruined by man in the 20th.
-damming of rivers
-burning millions of years of carbon in only 100 years
-overpopulation
-Extinction
-deforestation
-desertification
-pollution
-disease
All this started at the start of the industrial revolution.
I would love it personally, nature in the raw, free from mans influence. If I get attacked, I'll shoot, otherwise no. Most wolf shooting are not from self defense situations. If you want a controlled, safe environment, then move to a big city and do your outdoor activities at Cabelas.
Also, I'm an Idaho hunter/outdoorsman who welcomes the wolf at a reasonable population. I will even welcome humans at a reasonable population.
I am not biased
I am not arrogant
I am not selfish
I am not anthropocentric
and I will share
The Tourist
member
PremiumSauces said:
I'll dig around for it. Usually the newest installment of "Bubba Shoots Cement" is played by a local TV station when the DNR does its "Safety Is No Accident" campaign.
This campaign has been going on as long as I can remember, you'd think everyone would know it's a sting operation. And yet every year they put one butt-ugly of a deer in the middle of a road in the dead of night and some bubba shoots it. Most times when they see it doesn't fall down, they just shoot it again...
EGAD! It'stheendoftheworldasweknowit! Grin!
I misspoke myself, I should have said the 19th and 20th centuries.
It is quite easy to have wolves at your doorstep here, take a look around. I have personally seen them less than 20 miles from the Capital steps.
My place was a few miles of dirt road outside that town mentioned in my earlier post. Where we could spot a quite diverse amount of wildlife from river otters to elk, rattlesnakes to eagles, or shoot off the porch, I worked near there today, at times in areas that a house could not be seen. I am quite familiar with "out of town".
Thankfully I and the folks I spend most of my personal time with don't fit well into a lot of todays world' ideals as there are plenty of things we don't particularly welcome. We are not all "Bubba's" either, (although sometimes I kinda like that fella), including public office holders to professionals a license of which I posses. Diversity and PCness is not one of my virtues as I have never been a follower, or is that a virtue in it's self?
As in the wolf debate, That sir is a matter of opinion.
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Wildfire
Member
Wow !
Hey there:
Did this get out of hand or what ? It went from wild killing sprees of dumping every last wolf to dove killers , crow hunters, and even what to do about to many people. Are you guys really hunters or just some anti's that some how got on this site ? What in the world is wrong with dove or crow hunting?
Any time I see someone compair people to an animal I really start to wonder about them. Shoot only what you eat ? Bull. Maybe for some but I have a hard time buying that one. Check out the numbers in the UP of Mich. and see what the wolves do. They have almost totally destoyed the deer hunting in the western part. Cabins are empty, towns are turning into ghost towns, and schools have closed. The normal deer seasons of the past helped keep this area alive. The deer hunters left. Why? The wolves took over.
I do not think killing all the wolves is the right thing to do. But , In the Grand scam of things in the UP , if the wolves can control the deer population there would be no need for hunting as a means of population control. Results ? The anti's get their way.
This is exactly what they wanted all along. Hunters against hunters. I do not hunt doves, cant say I like the taste. But I have no problem with the guy that does. I do not duck hunt but don't care if you do. I have not shot a wolf. And have no plans to. But I am not going to sit and bash the guy that does.
Hey there:
Did this get out of hand or what ? It went from wild killing sprees of dumping every last wolf to dove killers , crow hunters, and even what to do about to many people. Are you guys really hunters or just some anti's that some how got on this site ? What in the world is wrong with dove or crow hunting?
Any time I see someone compair people to an animal I really start to wonder about them. Shoot only what you eat ? Bull. Maybe for some but I have a hard time buying that one. Check out the numbers in the UP of Mich. and see what the wolves do. They have almost totally destoyed the deer hunting in the western part. Cabins are empty, towns are turning into ghost towns, and schools have closed. The normal deer seasons of the past helped keep this area alive. The deer hunters left. Why? The wolves took over.
I do not think killing all the wolves is the right thing to do. But , In the Grand scam of things in the UP , if the wolves can control the deer population there would be no need for hunting as a means of population control. Results ? The anti's get their way.
This is exactly what they wanted all along. Hunters against hunters. I do not hunt doves, cant say I like the taste. But I have no problem with the guy that does. I do not duck hunt but don't care if you do. I have not shot a wolf. And have no plans to. But I am not going to sit and bash the guy that does.
The key word in the first report is "suspected", the second report from the 1800's has also not been verified. Yes wolves kill dogs, especially if they are being hunted with them. Raccoons kill dogs also (they have been known to drown them). Don't get me wrong, if a wolf showed itself to be a danger I would shoot it. I just wouldn't hunt them. By the way, the media has a tendency to show the wolf as evil not mystical.
ZeSpectre
Member
Funny timing with this. I saw three gray wolves trotting along the edge of a field on my drive in to work this morning. Thought they were dogs until I got closer and well-ain't-that-something...they were definitely wolves. Probably out of Shenandoah NP or George Washington NF (that's Virginia for those who don't know).
Wolves have been MIA in Va for a while so it was quite a surprise to see them.
Wolves have been MIA in Va for a while so it was quite a surprise to see them.
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/story.html?id=c0afa479-ebe8-45f6-8e54-166cbdf9af0d&k=8065
SASKATOON -- A coroner's inquest has found that Ontario student Kenton Carnegie was killed by a pack of wolves in northern Saskatchewan two years ago,
I have yet to hear of anyone anywhere hunting wolves with dogs.
The hunting dog losses refered to were from mountain lion and bear hunters.
Sorry if there was a misunderstanding.
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I love how quickly people beleive the animal rights advocates.
They're just like the anti-gunners and will lie because they think animal's lives are more important than people's lives.
Wolves are dangerous predators, capable of killing species far more dangerous than man. Without hunting to give them a healthy fear of man, how long do you think they will skirt the edge of civilization and only take pets?
cracked butt
Member
Its more politics than reality.
In our state, the DNR has vehemently denied for years that cougars exist in the wild, right now their official opinion is that cougars might exist and that enough evidence has not been collected. This is despite the fact that hunters see cougars fairly often, a friend of mine even has a picture of one from his Camtracker, and has found eviscerated deer carcasses high up in trees on his land (the DNR told him that it was bobcats-riiight).
Same thing with wolves- everyone knows that wolves will attack humans, whether they want to admit it or not, but it would take an incident where a child of a celebrity or high ranking government official is carried off by wolves before anyone acknoledges the elephant in the living room.
In our state, the DNR has vehemently denied for years that cougars exist in the wild, right now their official opinion is that cougars might exist and that enough evidence has not been collected. This is despite the fact that hunters see cougars fairly often, a friend of mine even has a picture of one from his Camtracker, and has found eviscerated deer carcasses high up in trees on his land (the DNR told him that it was bobcats-riiight).
Same thing with wolves- everyone knows that wolves will attack humans, whether they want to admit it or not, but it would take an incident where a child of a celebrity or high ranking government official is carried off by wolves before anyone acknoledges the elephant in the living room.
The Tourist
member
cracked butt said:
That's exactly what it is. Now how do we implement a responsible cull where ranchers are protected (or can protect themselves) without creating a stop-gap policy? Yeah, I know that's a boring idea, but one that will last and actually work.
If I were king, I'd get some type of scientist who has a firm background in wolves and predation, and then determine which areas need culling or relocation to best protect ranchers.
Yes, that's a compromise, hopefully one that everyone can live with while running their dairy farms and cattle ranches.
Oh, and I'd buy a "cement wolf," just in case...
Let me make it clear, I am not an animal rights activist. I firmly believe that controlled hunts benefit wildlife populations and am a hunter myself. Deer, bear, turkey, Pronghorn, Javalina (Peccary), wild hog, cougar, and a few others are, or were, on my regular list. I just believe as hunters, and gun owners, we should present verified facts. We all have a tendency to make what we like to do seem more interesting. Sometimes we want to make what we hunt seem more dangerous than what they really are. I admit I'm sometimes guilty of that also. I guess I should clarify my previous statement: "There has never been a verified incident of a healthy wolf KILLING a human". Maybe used the wrong term by saying attack.
cracked butt
Member
That would be the ideal situation, and what the DNR should be doing.
The culling, where applicable should be done by hunters for economic reasons:
Selling licenses gives a net income to the state which can pay for the work of Biologists, hiring sharpshooters/trappers costs the state (the taxpayers) money.
The Tourist
member
cracked butt said:
I agree, with the proviso that licensing would be good only in "hot zones," or in a rotating system similar to turkey licenses.
It would be a check and balance system, protect sensitive areas, generate an income (as you point out), and give the scientists some real data on predation.
You realize what you've just done, don't you? You've come up with a realistic plan based on hard numbers and true predation protection.
Hang onto your cheesehead, you've just injected "sanity" into the wolf debate.
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