Officer's H&K fails to fire

[DinosaurJones]

Pretty crazy... both the suspect and the officer got VERY VERY lucky in this case that neither of them got shot. What I'm curious about though, is how do you have a firing pin spring missing for 2 years and have the gun be operational? Doesn't smell right to me...

...When the officer arrived at the home on Holly Tree Road, Foley — who was not the suspect officers were looking for — was standing in the road aiming a shotgun at the officer's marked police car, Mason said.

"Running into this individual was a complete surprise," Mason said Wednesday.

The officer got out of his car and sought cover before ordering Foley "numerous times" to lower the shotgun, Mason said. Another officer arrived and issued similar commands, Mason said.

The first officer, a nearly four-year veteran of the force, "saw the shotgun was still pointed at him and attempted to fire his weapon," Mason said. "When he pulled the trigger, the hammer dropped and the weapon did not discharge."

As the officer cleared his weapon, Foley began to lower his shotgun and comply with the officers' commands, Mason said. The shotgun discharged away from the officers in the process...

Full article: http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/309212

 

[TenDriver]

Wow! Glad this turned out well. Makes me wonder whether it was a light strike or bad ammo.

 

[rcmodel]

is how do you have a firing pin spring missing for 2 years and have the gun be operational?

I would suspect it was not the firing pin spring.

I would suspect it was the firing pin safety block spring.

It probably would fall down out of the way and unlock the firing pin without the spring, until it didn't that time.

rc

 

[Hypnogator]

An internal investigation showed a police armorer — a trained officer who services the department's weapons — failed to replace the handgun's firing pin spring during routine maintenance in 2010.

Position Wanted: Police Armorer

Four years experience, 200 Attaboys, only one little awsh**!

 

[627PCFan]

It probably would fall down out of the way and unlock the firing pin without the spring, until it didn't that time.

Baring that justification, my first thought was thank god it didnt fire, after 2 years of no pistol practice, god knows who he would have actually hit.

 

[DinosaurJones]

Baring that justification, my first thought was thank god it didnt fire, after 2 years of no pistol practice, god knows who he would have actually hit.

well, the article says the officer used the gun in his bi-annual qualification. so he supposedly had fired it within the last 6 months, but that was my initial thought also... how do you go two years without firing the weapon you trust your life to on a daily basis.

 

[flyskater]

I guess someone was praying for the BG to giveup his bad habiits.

 

[Drail]

..firing pin safeties - just one more thing to go wrong....

 

[armoredman]

Tucson Police Dept switched from the HK USP to the Glock because of reliability issues with them. When I was working at the indoor range, a TPD officer stopped by in uniform to pop a few rounds from his issued USP. It failed to fire at least 50% of the time. He left looking rather pale. The TPD armorer used to come by every so often with a box full of USPs to test fire.
I would like to see how many rounds that officer fired through that particular sidearm for the spring to be that worn out.

 

[Loosedhorse]

1. Number one reason a gun fails to fire when the hammer drops is no round in the chamber.
2. Though I understand the concept of a "short" inertial FP, it is unclear to me how the lack of a FP spring would prevent the gun from firing since it had fired before. Also, the fact that the FP spring was apparently missing does not rule out an empty chamber.
3. The pistol did not "fail to fire." The officer either failed to chamber a round, or the armorer failed to properly maintain the pistol, or both. Not a pistol failure.

..firing pin safeties - just one more thing to go wrong....

Well, considering that dropped LE guns without drop safeties tend to attract personal injury lawyers REAL fast, it may be the lesser of two evils.

It probably would fall down out of the way and unlock the firing pin without the spring, until it didn't that time.

I believe the FP block spring pushes the block down, and a the catch lifts the FP block up when the trigger is pulled.

 

[Skribs]

LH, it still failed to fire, but the failure was due to lack of proper maintenance or operation.

 

[SabbathWolf]

Tucson Police Dept switched from the HK USP to the Glock because of reliability issues with them. When I was working at the indoor range, a TPD officer stopped by in uniform to pop a few rounds from his issued USP. It failed to fire at least 50% of the time. He left looking rather pale. The TPD armorer used to come by every so often with a box full of USPs to test fire.
I would like to see how many rounds that officer fired through that particular sidearm for the spring to be that worn out.

Got any "official" links for this?

I find this EXTREMELY difficult to believe that the TPD got rid of HKs because of "reliability" issues at all.

The HK USP45 and the HK Mark23 Socom (developed together simultaneously) have gone through more trials and torture testing than any other handgun on the planet as far as I last checked...including Glock.

Now if they got rid of HKs because of parts availability, cost analysis, difficulties in complicated maintenance, or the fact that the average officer just can't shoot a USP very well......or just happened to get a really great deal on Glocks...including future trade-ins, parts & accessories, etc....I'd buy that.

But I'm not buying that lack of "reliability" was the main driving force behind the switch. There "must" be a lot more to this story.

 

[armoredman]

Links? I WAS THERE. More to the story? I'd have to say very probably, no political institution does anything for just one logical or illogical reason. I only met the armorer and the officers, and the that was the story they gave me, back in 2000'ish", disremember the precise year. Very probably the was more going on, (Glock DOES sell guns to PDs at giveaway prices!), but what I heard on the street level was what I related.
I can also tell you an I WAS THERE story about HK USP pistols - we had 6 at Jensen's Arizona Sportsman indoor rental range when I started. When I left a year and a half later, we had one - 4 were at the factory for repair work, and the 5th was getting boxed up to go. I will concede rental guns are beaten, but the 10 year old HK P-7 was rented almost every day, and it was still going strong. That was a great pistol.

...or the fact that the average officer just can't shoot a USP very well...

You're kidding, right? So now you're saying the gun you are defending can't be shot well by average people? I know the old bad joke is "HK, because you suck and we hate you", but I didn't believe it...
I will say the checkering on the ones we had did seem a bit sharp, but other than that minor issue I had no difficulty shooting all of the USPs we had. They initially shot reliably and to point of aim for me, until they broke. I wasn't the gunsmith, don't remember all the issues; one that does pop up in memory was the captive recoil spring assembly disassembling itself, but that's kinda minor.
Do remember, this was 12 years ago, when the USP came out, and was THE hot ticket item of the time...every new gun has teething problems, but the USP seemed to be exceptionally bad at the time. I would hazard a good guess that HK has made improvements and that USPs sold today are fine robust pistols worth the HK logo.

 

[SabbathWolf]

Links? I WAS THERE. More to the story? I'd have to say very probably, no political institution does anything for just one logical or illogical reason. I only met the armorer and the officers, and the that was the story they gave me, back in 2000'ish", disremember the precise year. Very probably the was more going on, (Glock DOES sell guns to PDs at giveaway prices!), but what I heard on the street level was what I related.
I can also tell you an I WAS THERE story about HK USP pistols - we had 6 at Jensen's Arizona Sportsman indoor rental range when I started. When I left a year and a half later, we had one - 4 were at the factory for repair work, and the 5th was getting boxed up to go. I will concede rental guns are beaten, but the 10 year old HK P-7 was rented almost every day, and it was still going strong. That was a great pistol.

You're kidding, right? So now you're saying the gun you are defending can't be shot well by average people? I know the old bad joke is "HK, because you suck and we hate you", but I didn't believe it...
I will say the checkering on the ones we had did seem a bit sharp, but other than that minor issue I had no difficulty shooting all of the USPs we had. They initially shot reliably and to point of aim for me, until they broke. I wasn't the gunsmith, don't remember all the issues; one that does pop up in memory was the captive recoil spring assembly disassembling itself, but that's kinda minor.
Do remember, this was 12 years ago, when the USP came out, and was THE hot ticket item of the time...every new gun has teething problems, but the USP seemed to be exceptionally bad at the time. I would hazard a good guess that HK has made improvements and that USPs sold today are fine robust pistols worth the HK logo.

The "can't be shot well" comment is based on the fact that many people find the grip on the USP to be too large for them to be comfortable with. It has "nothing" to do with the officers being crappy with guns or anything....lol. Don't take this so personally. That's not what I meant.


All I can say is I've NEVER heard of anybody else, anywhere on the entire planet, who has gotten rid of USPs because of "reliability" issues what so ever.

In fact, I bought this one all the way back on 23 AUG 1996 (still have the receipt right here if ya wanna see it...lol) and it has been flawless. It has literally thousands+ of rounds through it now over all these years, and I've never had to replace a single spring, firing pin, extractor...nothing at all yet. Nothing.

So, I still stand by my assertion that there is just something weird, strange and unnatural going on in Arizona that just doesn't happen elsewhere. Don't know what else to say.....
USPs are used by various military and L/E agencies in over 16 various countries with great results. Likewise by civilians all over the world for HD and CCW as well...with likewise impressive results.
All these problems in Arizona just seem quite suspicious to me.

 

[B!ngo]

First time I've ever heard that USP's (or any H&K for that matter) were unreliable, or difficult to maintain. Somehow, I think we're missing 'the rest of the story'. I'm not a Glock lover, though I do have near-infinite respect for their design and reliability but I don't think an USP or later (or a P7 for that matter) takes a back seat to anything Glock has ever made.
Cheaper, no DA/SA complication, great marketing and deals with LEO organizations but more reliable? I think not!
B

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

I once forgot to put the firing pin return spring back in my XD. It was like that for 3 months and only jammed twice out of the few hundred rounds I put through it in that time period. Luckily I discovered it and returned it back to 100%. All it did was cause a jam when the firing pin stopped a new round from chambering because of how far it stuck out.

 

[Loosedhorse]

First time I've ever heard that USP's (or any H&K for that matter) were unreliable, or difficult to maintain.

The pistol did not "fail to fire." The officer either failed to chamber a round, or the armorer failed to properly maintain the pistol, or both. Not a pistol failure.

And there is the trouble with saying this is a FTF. We all understand that FTF are "the gun's problem." Here, it was either the armorer's problem or the user's problem.

I know of no gun that is reliable if it reassembled without all the necessary pieces ("Hey, Sarge--what do I do with this left-over spring?" :banghead; or that fires if its chamber is (as I still suspect) empty.

That said, yes, armoredman, I think that HK did not go in the right direction when it went from P7 to USP--but economically, they had little choice.

 

[SabbathWolf]

First time I've ever heard that USP's (or any H&K for that matter) were unreliable, or difficult to maintain. Somehow, I think we're missing 'the rest of the story'. I'm not a Glock lover, though I do have near-infinite respect for their design and reliability but I don't think an USP or later (or a P7 for that matter) takes a back seat to anything Glock has ever made.
Cheaper, no DA/SA complication, great marketing and deals with LEO organizations but more reliable? I think not!
B

+1000000000000000

"Something" just doesn't quite sound right here at ALL.

 

[psyopspec]

Sabbath, I agree with you said about the HK reputation, but AM is above reproach as much as a guy on the internet can be. More to the story is still definitely possible. Was the armorer competent, did one bad batch make it into the hands of the PD, etc. In past threads on the subject, I'm the only one I who had a SIG crap the bed on them, and even had to deal with the disbelief of some members ("I don't see how that could be possible..."). Guns: Made by humans, subject to error.

 

[SabbathWolf]

Sabbath, I agree with you said about the HK reputation, but AM is above reproach as much as a guy on the internet can be. More to the story is still definitely possible. Was the armorer competent, did one bad batch make it into the hands of the PD, etc. In past threads on the subject, I'm the only one I who had a SIG crap the bed on them, and even had to deal with the disbelief of some members ("I don't see how that could be possible..."). Guns: Made by humans, subject to error.

Absolutely and for certain.
I'm not calling the guy out or anything like that.
That's not what I mean.
But I "am" standing my ground 100% here in saying that there "MUST" be more to the story, because "something" is certainly NOT right or within the norm here at all what so ever.

 

[B!ngo]

Absolutely and for certain.
I'm not calling the guy out or anything like that.
That's not what I mean.
But I "am" standing my ground 100% here in saying that there "MUST" be more to the story, because "something" is certainly NOT right or within the norm here at all what so ever.

I'll see and raise.
Just re-read the article. See which paragraph you think is true or false.

Para 1:
An internal investigation showed a police armorer — a trained officer who services the department's weapons — failed to replace the handgun's firing pin spring during routine maintenance in 2010.

Para 2:
Mason said the gun had fired correctly "on a number of occasions" at biannual qualifications at the county's firing range, and subsequently fired correctly during tests after the Monday incident.

So, I'm thinkin' that it would tough to figure how the gun had 'gun had fired correctly "on a number of occasions" at biannual qualifications' without a firing pin. As reliable as my HK's are, they tend to work better when all parts are present and accounted for.

Something is fishy in whooville. I suspect that the armorer, the officer documenting the qualifications, and the officer himself all have some 'splaining' to do.

Just fortunate that no one was hurt in this kerfuffle.

B.

 

[SabbathWolf]

I'll see and raise.
Just re-read the article. See which paragraph you think is true or false.

Para 1:
An internal investigation showed a police armorer — a trained officer who services the department's weapons — failed to replace the handgun's firing pin spring during routine maintenance in 2010.

Para 2:
Mason said the gun had fired correctly "on a number of occasions" at biannual qualifications at the county's firing range, and subsequently fired correctly during tests after the Monday incident.

So, I'm thinkin' that it would tough to figure how the gun had 'gun had fired correctly "on a number of occasions" at biannual qualifications' without a firing pin. As reliable as my HK's are, they tend to work better when all parts are present and accounted for.

Something is fishy in whooville. I suspect that the armorer, the officer documenting the qualifications, and the officer himself all have some 'splaining' to do.

Just fortunate that no one was hurt in this kerfuffle.

B.

Well Ricky......lol....

That's a tough one.
But bottom line to me is "somebody" is frickin' lying through their teeth to cover their own rear ends.

How many shots are fired at a PD qualification?
And x's that by twice in the same year?
No malfunctions at all huh?
Hmmmmmm....

The armorer didn't put the spring back in. Well...OK...that could happen I guess. But not just one, but two complete qualifications after that and the gun ran just fine huh?
Hmmmmmm.....

To me, and of course this is pure unsubstantiated opinion only....
Either:

1) This cop never qualified in the first place and had a range buddy just "sign off" on his score card for the records department...or...

2) This cop never chambered a round in the first place...and so in order to save face in the eye of the public, the PD blamed it on a "fictitious" unnamed armorer who doesn't even exist so as to not embarrass the cop nor the department for their sorry training and skills.

What do "you" think?

 

[tarosean]

Dont a lot of LEO's qualify with weapons other than what they carry?

 

[Onmilo]

Murphey stikes again.

 

[GLOOB]

To clarify, it was a missing firing pin SPRING. Not a missing firing pin. Or an FP safety spring.

As other have noted, a gun can fire most of the time without a firing pin spring. People sometimes notice a broken spring when they inspect the gun, rather than due to serious malfunction. I've broken two FP springs, and both times, I noticed it while detail stripping.

If the FP safety spring broke the gun wouldn't be dropsafe anymore, but it would still fire just fine. At least every gun I've ever seen would. (Well, except my HP-22A, but that's a whole different story).