Glockamania®
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4th Amendment no no.
Officer's response to 911 call that wasn't made.
- Thread starter CheyennePilot
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4th Amendment no no.
Actually, I have never thought that the officer in that situation was "after me" in that situation.
When that happens to me, I generally feel immediately guilty and check my speedometer.
My guess is that 95% of us do that.If I am not speeding, then I am more curious than anything else. I wonder why he is stopping me. I can't say that fear or disgust has ever entered into it. One time, it was a similarly colored car pulling away from a gas station or running out on a restaurant bill, or something like that. In a couple of minutes, I was on my way.
Is that a fair response to your thought experiment? If I am doing something wrong (speeding), I feel guilty. If I am not doing something wrong, I am curious.
Mike
Officers'Wife
Member
Hi Checkman,
To my knowledge you haven't yet and simple courtesy demands I give you the benefit of the doubt. For most people, it's the 'cop attitude' that causes the immediate distrust. From the sounds of it you are one of the minority that know the use of common sense in doing your job. Although, I will admit to having a slight twinge at the thought of 'making deals' (I'll only see what I need to see) but as I have said before and will no doubt say again, I wasn't there and don't know the situation so my twinges are irrelevant.
Just do me a favor- If you ever happened to find yourself on duty and pull over a pickup... If the guy gets out of the truck and is wearing and artificial leg, please do not walk up to him with your hand on your sidearm. And if you do and he tells you to file the front sight off so it don't hurt so much when he rams it... you get the picture... He's getting out because his leg stump is hurting him, Just say 'back up Captain" and give him a moment. OK?
Selena
To my knowledge you haven't yet and simple courtesy demands I give you the benefit of the doubt. For most people, it's the 'cop attitude' that causes the immediate distrust. From the sounds of it you are one of the minority that know the use of common sense in doing your job. Although, I will admit to having a slight twinge at the thought of 'making deals' (I'll only see what I need to see) but as I have said before and will no doubt say again, I wasn't there and don't know the situation so my twinges are irrelevant.
Just do me a favor- If you ever happened to find yourself on duty and pull over a pickup... If the guy gets out of the truck and is wearing and artificial leg, please do not walk up to him with your hand on your sidearm. And if you do and he tells you to file the front sight off so it don't hurt so much when he rams it... you get the picture... He's getting out because his leg stump is hurting him, Just say 'back up Captain" and give him a moment. OK?
Selena
Officer's Wife
After seven years I've learned which battles are worth fighting at that moment and which ones can be returned to later. Young officers want to take on the world and go after everything. Marijuana seeds in the floorboard, somebody having left their driver license at home,a roach clip etc. These things rate up there with drive-bys, murder, rape, arson, bank robbery etc.
I'm 39 so it didn't take very long after getting hired that I realized there are many leaks in the dike. You plug the bigger holes and keep an eye on the smaller ones. I'm about keeping the peace and going home at the end of my shift. The worlds problems are alot bigger than me.
Nice talking to you and I'll keep an eye out for the Captain.
After seven years I've learned which battles are worth fighting at that moment and which ones can be returned to later. Young officers want to take on the world and go after everything. Marijuana seeds in the floorboard, somebody having left their driver license at home,a roach clip etc. These things rate up there with drive-bys, murder, rape, arson, bank robbery etc.
I'm 39 so it didn't take very long after getting hired that I realized there are many leaks in the dike. You plug the bigger holes and keep an eye on the smaller ones. I'm about keeping the peace and going home at the end of my shift. The worlds problems are alot bigger than me.
Nice talking to you and I'll keep an eye out for the Captain.
Officers'Wife
Member
Hi Checkman,
In that case good at ya, I've heard stats that only one in ten crimes actually lead to an arrest. I would far prefer the one to be a murderer, a rapist or drunk driver than a simple possession. And for the record I think marijuana is the biggest bit of stupidity people can inflict on themselves.
Selena
In that case good at ya, I've heard stats that only one in ten crimes actually lead to an arrest. I would far prefer the one to be a murderer, a rapist or drunk driver than a simple possession. And for the record I think marijuana is the biggest bit of stupidity people can inflict on themselves.
Selena
?
you are basing this scenario off of a false starting premise, that my safety from criminals is more important than my freedom.
you can lock us all up in golden cages full of luxury and insure our safety, but that isn't freedom.
Yes, I'd rather risk a muderer rushing in and fooling the police than allow police to search the home without very very solid cause.
How many other such scenarios can you cook up? Should I consent to police being able to search any vehicle any time they want because of the scenario of badguys kidnapping you and putting you in the truck as they drive out of town to execute you? "Too bad you don't let cops search cars whenever they want, that would have saved you in this very rare circumstance!"
?
you are basing this scenario off of a false starting premise, that my safety from criminals is more important than my freedom.
you can lock us all up in golden cages full of luxury and insure our safety, but that isn't freedom.
Yes, I'd rather risk a muderer rushing in and fooling the police than allow police to search the home without very very solid cause.
How many other such scenarios can you cook up? Should I consent to police being able to search any vehicle any time they want because of the scenario of badguys kidnapping you and putting you in the truck as they drive out of town to execute you? "Too bad you don't let cops search cars whenever they want, that would have saved you in this very rare circumstance!"
Ever seen a search warrant execution? It's a bit more thorough than a few questions and a quick look around to make sure there isn't a crime afoot, and that there won't be a call for a foul odor in a few days.
If you were the cop responding to a 911 call and you saw a gun safe, wouldn't you want to know if there were any guns unaccounted for for your own safety and the safety of possible victims/hostages in the house?
Did the officer throw you and your loved ones against the wall and frisk you?
If you did call 911 and the cops didn't make a cursory investigation would you be happy about it?
As the moderator mentioned several times, there is an EXIGENT CIRCUMSTANCES exception to the 4th Amendment warrant requirement. There is also a PLAIN VIEW exception. If your wife let the cops in voluntarily it applies. From the OP, the cops were let in. They didn't force entry.
Most folks would rather not be bothered by the police for no reason, but most folks would like the cops to do their job properly when there is a reason. It comes down to a bit of common sense and common courtesy.
If you were the cop responding to a 911 call and you saw a gun safe, wouldn't you want to know if there were any guns unaccounted for for your own safety and the safety of possible victims/hostages in the house?
Did the officer throw you and your loved ones against the wall and frisk you?
If you did call 911 and the cops didn't make a cursory investigation would you be happy about it?
As the moderator mentioned several times, there is an EXIGENT CIRCUMSTANCES exception to the 4th Amendment warrant requirement. There is also a PLAIN VIEW exception. If your wife let the cops in voluntarily it applies. From the OP, the cops were let in. They didn't force entry.
Most folks would rather not be bothered by the police for no reason, but most folks would like the cops to do their job properly when there is a reason. It comes down to a bit of common sense and common courtesy.
cassandrasdaddy
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"Of the police I've been around (discounting my brother in law who I will not make comments about ) for every one that appeared to have his mind on the job at hand there are seven that are condesending, rude or just plain arrogant."
really? thats a fascinating experience very different from mine. what is the nature and frequency of these interactions? the years i've had quite a few interactions of a proffesional nature with law enforcement
really? thats a fascinating experience very different from mine. what is the nature and frequency of these interactions? the years i've had quite a few interactions of a proffesional nature with law enforcement
cassandrasdaddy
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"Are they telling the truth? If you are in the house, you would probably know if there was any screaming or shouting."
but if you have kids would you notice or think anything of it. got kids bob?or just quiet ones?
but if you have kids would you notice or think anything of it. got kids bob?or just quiet ones?
Officers'Wife
Member
cassandrasdaddy
I'm happy for you.
Ex. #1. County sheriff parked in drive of (unoccupied) farmstead. Owner asked him to leave the farmstead as he was upsetting the cattle. Deputy got in Gramps' face and demanded to know what he had to hide.
Ex. #2, A friend of mine in Chicago could no longer tolerate her life in her foster home. She chose to stand in front of an El train. Investigating checkerboard comment - Here's one that won't be a hooker. Donna was 13.
Ex #3, Dad's stump (he lost a leg in Vietnam) was bothering him so he pulled over and was completely off the highway. County Deputy stopped inquired to situation. When Dad explained he was told if he was that crippled up he shouldn't be on the highway.
Now, is it your intention to come across as belligerent? Sometimes on the net it is hard to tell.
Selena
I'm happy for you.
Ex. #1. County sheriff parked in drive of (unoccupied) farmstead. Owner asked him to leave the farmstead as he was upsetting the cattle. Deputy got in Gramps' face and demanded to know what he had to hide.
Ex. #2, A friend of mine in Chicago could no longer tolerate her life in her foster home. She chose to stand in front of an El train. Investigating checkerboard comment - Here's one that won't be a hooker. Donna was 13.
Ex #3, Dad's stump (he lost a leg in Vietnam) was bothering him so he pulled over and was completely off the highway. County Deputy stopped inquired to situation. When Dad explained he was told if he was that crippled up he shouldn't be on the highway.
Now, is it your intention to come across as belligerent? Sometimes on the net it is hard to tell.
Selena
Officers'Wife
Member
Hi Perp,
Curiosity is all well and good, 'wouldn't you want to know' is a non sequitur. Would they have the legal right to open the safe would be the consideration. I would hate to think 'need to know' supercedes the law, wouldn't you?
Selena
Curiosity is all well and good, 'wouldn't you want to know' is a non sequitur. Would they have the legal right to open the safe would be the consideration. I would hate to think 'need to know' supercedes the law, wouldn't you?
Selena
It's not "curiousity". It's making sure you go home in one piece at the end of your tour and don't fail to discover a victim or hostage. It is a balancing of the safety of the officers and civilians present versus the right to privacy. A closed gun safe may not have been closed before the police got there. Or the owner may have been forced to open it before the police got there. Or there may be other guns lying or stashed in the house (THR is full of posts about guns placed in easy reach, loaded and ready without locks on them) that could be a deadly threat. The 4th Amendment is all about REASONABLE searches and seizures. A warrant is not a sin qua non.
Perhaps people with these issues should register with their local police and government as opting out of police protection, and be given signs to post on and around their premises that no matter what happens, they don't want the police to help them. Maybe they can even get a property tax reduction. But they should make sure to tell their next of kin in advance so that the next of kin don't bother filing the inevitable lawsuit against the police/government for failing to protect them.
Perhaps people with these issues should register with their local police and government as opting out of police protection, and be given signs to post on and around their premises that no matter what happens, they don't want the police to help them. Maybe they can even get a property tax reduction. But they should make sure to tell their next of kin in advance so that the next of kin don't bother filing the inevitable lawsuit against the police/government for failing to protect them.
Selena,
Like in any profession, there is a broad spectrum of behavior. Clearly, you've had some less than professionally behaved LEO's. But on the facts given by the OP, it appears IMHO that the officers were acting reasonably and professionally, and just did what was necessary and no more to do their job properly and protect the public.
Like in any profession, there is a broad spectrum of behavior. Clearly, you've had some less than professionally behaved LEO's. But on the facts given by the OP, it appears IMHO that the officers were acting reasonably and professionally, and just did what was necessary and no more to do their job properly and protect the public.
cassandrasdaddy
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many of my interactions were less than happy
so of the three interactions were you there for all three?or relating them to us third hand?
and i think its 50 50 on whether i'm belligerent
so of the three interactions were you there for all three?or relating them to us third hand?
and i think its 50 50 on whether i'm belligerent
Officers'Wife
Member
Hi Perp,
In my limited understanding of the rules of evidence I must agree. Please forgive me for playing devil's advocate. It's one of my many bad habits. Quite frankly I learn a lot from the opinions of others on such issues. I appreciate your patience and courtesy.
Selena
In my limited understanding of the rules of evidence I must agree. Please forgive me for playing devil's advocate. It's one of my many bad habits. Quite frankly I learn a lot from the opinions of others on such issues. I appreciate your patience and courtesy.
Selena
Officers'Wife
Member
Hi cassandrasdaddy,
Yes, although I will admit on the second I was ten years old and already in a bad situation which may have 'colored' my perception of the event.
Please try for either one or the other. Consider this, although my opinions and communication styles are different than yours I am trying very hard to respect you. Please make the effort to return the courtesy. TYIA
Selena
Yes, although I will admit on the second I was ten years old and already in a bad situation which may have 'colored' my perception of the event.
Please try for either one or the other. Consider this, although my opinions and communication styles are different than yours I am trying very hard to respect you. Please make the effort to return the courtesy. TYIA
Selena
Officers'Wife
Member
Hi Perp,
I'll relay the message next week when we visit. I can tell you his answer will be that he is an American, thanking him for doing his duty is like thanking him for breathing.
Selena
I'll relay the message next week when we visit. I can tell you his answer will be that he is an American, thanking him for doing his duty is like thanking him for breathing.
Selena
This part is real important. I will jealously guard the political rights of all involved, but if a mere inconvenience to me makes for a safer situation for police officers, than that seems like a reasonable trade-off to me.
When I hear people talking about how police should approach a dangerous and unknown situation, I ask, "If you son had to serve a felon warrant on a man believed to be armed (or whatever the task is), how would you want your son to do it?"
I really want police officers who are concerned with getting home in one piece at the end of the tour. Self preservation is a healthy mental concern. The alternative is to be policed by people who are not concerned with etting home in one piece at the end of the tour - and that's not mental health.
Mike
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cassandrasdaddy
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the occurences you related seemed to be examples of rudeness and stupidity in at least one case but didn't rise to the level of civil rights violations imo.how did they become symptomatic of a police conspiracy to you?
Officers'Wife
Member
Hi Daddy
Conspiracy? No. It does suggest (to me anyway) the need for a third party watchdog.
Consider: In each thread here (and I realize this is a small sample set) there has been at least one defender of possible police misconduct. Including the story a few weeks ago when an officer tried to shoot a snake out of a bird feeder and killed an innocent. There are several assumptions to made within the boundaries of the sample set But for the moment let's assume the defenders are police officers themselves which is not a strech. Persons of the same occupation tend to be hyper-sympathic to each other, that's human nature.
With this assumption, wouldn't it be logical to set a civilian reveiw board completely independant of the police/mayor/DA to investigate alledged police misconduct? A check on the exective branch at the local level? Would it be such a bad idea for the citizens to be involved in the investigation of such incidents? Wouldn't it actually make the LEO's job a bit easier as when the people know there is a disinterested third party they can air their complaints too misconceptions and grudges can be aired and resolved instead of festering? In addition, the professionals would be cleared in a way no one, not even a loud mouth rebellious kid such as I, can claim cover-up?
Selena
Conspiracy? No. It does suggest (to me anyway) the need for a third party watchdog.
Consider: In each thread here (and I realize this is a small sample set) there has been at least one defender of possible police misconduct. Including the story a few weeks ago when an officer tried to shoot a snake out of a bird feeder and killed an innocent. There are several assumptions to made within the boundaries of the sample set But for the moment let's assume the defenders are police officers themselves which is not a strech. Persons of the same occupation tend to be hyper-sympathic to each other, that's human nature.
With this assumption, wouldn't it be logical to set a civilian reveiw board completely independant of the police/mayor/DA to investigate alledged police misconduct? A check on the exective branch at the local level? Would it be such a bad idea for the citizens to be involved in the investigation of such incidents? Wouldn't it actually make the LEO's job a bit easier as when the people know there is a disinterested third party they can air their complaints too misconceptions and grudges can be aired and resolved instead of festering? In addition, the professionals would be cleared in a way no one, not even a loud mouth rebellious kid such as I, can claim cover-up?
Selena
These threads sadden me, I should stop reading them When did so many gun owners become so anti-police? So convinced police are the enemy? How can police responding to a 911 call, a call for help, to make sure that everyone is safe, a bad thing?
Certainly police, like any other institution with humans (I served in the Navy, plenty of screw ups, some with major consequences, in the Navy) can make mistakes, but as a whole I think they serve our interests well. Most of the police officers I have known were decent guys, with no more than the usual number of jerks.
When did so many gun owners become so anti-police? So convinced police are the enemy? How can police responding to a 911 call, a call for help, to make sure that everyone is safe, a bad thing?Certainly police, like any other institution with humans (I served in the Navy, plenty of screw ups, some with major consequences, in the Navy) can make mistakes, but as a whole I think they serve our interests well. Most of the police officers I have known were decent guys, with no more than the usual number of jerks.
Ragnar Danneskjold
Member
A lot of you seem to have some idea that you would be just fine without police. That you've got enough tactical sense and training, and that you are prepared enough to deal with the criminal element. That you'd be better off with your house as your castle, your weapons, your stored supplies, and just look out for number one.
Well I wish that you could go experience that for real. I wish you could all go someplace where there were no police and it was every man for himself.
You would get over run in less than a day. And you'd spend that day crapping yourselves before wishing there was someone you could call to help you.
How about this. Just don't call them. You'll keep living here in America where police are on the streets 24/7 on the lookout for people who want you dead. But you can at least minimize your contact with the police right? Since they are so troublesome and devious, just don't call. Next time you come home from work and your door is wide open, or your car window is smashed in, just deal with it yourself. After all, you're so much more upstanding and capable than the police. You'll be better off if you jest leave them out of the loop. Keep the problem well within your more than capable hands.
Well I wish that you could go experience that for real. I wish you could all go someplace where there were no police and it was every man for himself.
You would get over run in less than a day. And you'd spend that day crapping yourselves before wishing there was someone you could call to help you.
How about this. Just don't call them. You'll keep living here in America where police are on the streets 24/7 on the lookout for people who want you dead. But you can at least minimize your contact with the police right? Since they are so troublesome and devious, just don't call. Next time you come home from work and your door is wide open, or your car window is smashed in, just deal with it yourself. After all, you're so much more upstanding and capable than the police. You'll be better off if you jest leave them out of the loop. Keep the problem well within your more than capable hands.
average_shooter
Member
Well, the problem here is that the "jerks" get a badge and union lawyers to hide behind.
Frankly, I see that the system, both humanly and mechanically as has been stated earlier, is broken. Fix the system and problems will resolve themselves.
Maybe it would be easier if the responding officer knew for sure that an emergency call was made instead of trying to guess if it's real or is it one of the nine out of ten calls that's a fake. Take out that much guess work and I'll start to have a little more faith in "the system." But when it is openly admitted that it's broken? I have little to no faith in broken systems...
Frankly, I see that the system, both humanly and mechanically as has been stated earlier, is broken. Fix the system and problems will resolve themselves.
Maybe it would be easier if the responding officer knew for sure that an emergency call was made instead of trying to guess if it's real or is it one of the nine out of ten calls that's a fake. Take out that much guess work and I'll start to have a little more faith in "the system." But when it is openly admitted that it's broken? I have little to no faith in broken systems...
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