Okay, one more spin-off... If cop asks whether you are armed?

[BlisteringSilence]

In the traffic incidents where I've had to interact with LEOs, I gave them my DL, insurance, and CCW permit all at once. I verbally stated: "I have my CCW and I am carrying. It's in a holster" (all while keeping my hands on the wheel and looking at the officer. Never had any trouble at all or specific commands. One officer invited me to his car (I had hit a curb and was waiting to get towed) and (in a friendly manner) asked me why I had chosen to get my CCW.

Another time I was pulled over for a bad headlight in a borrowed car. Same "speech" given to him and the officer asked me what I carried (a Glock 19) and then proceeded to tell me how much he loved Glocks and used the full-size .40 for his duty carry and the sub-compact .40 for his off-duty... No tickets either time either

Whenever I get pulled over, I'm quick to let the officer know what's going on. By the nature of their job, they have to be suspicious of everyone they pull over and the more I can do to show them they can trust me, the more they will trust me.

On a side note, while I was waiting for my CCW to come in the mail, I got pulled over for wearing my hands-free cellphone set while driving in town (it was a set that was in both ears--not just one ear). I didn't have the permit yet and had forgotten that I had submitted the paperwork. However, I had been cleared for the CCW and was declared a permit holder by the state. So you can imagine how unhappy the officer was when he scans my DL and finds out that the kid he just pulled over has a CCW. Through my mirror, I watch the officer come back to my car really slow, unsnapping the thumbreak on this holster and putting his hand on his grip and cautiously leaning in to ask me if I have a weapon in the car...

So yeah, based on that, I'm quick to declare what exactly is going on. The LEOs seem to appreciate it a lot (the sheriff I interacted with specifically thanked me for being upfront with him).

And from me, I thank you.

I genuinely feel bad for those who have had adverse reactions / actions while carrying. It's reprehensible.

What I don't understand (and this is simply my local ignorance, I've never worked law enforcement in a "big city," just a big (physically) county) is why anyone would hesitate to tell me that they have a CHL. As far as I'm concerned, that's an "I'm not a criminal" card. I love it when people hand it over. It means I get to adjust my potential level of threat right up front.

 

[Wastemore]

Irony: Exercising the rights law enforcement is sworn to protect makes you suspect.

"If you comply, I will go easy on you".. sounds a lot like "acknowledge my ability to ruin you by forgoing your rights and I may use my discretion in your favor".

 

[Deanimator]

What I don't understand (and this is simply my local ignorance, I've never worked law enforcement in a "big city," just a big (physically) county) is why anyone would hesitate to tell me that they have a CHL.

Search this site for "Fairfax County" and "false arrest" and you'll see why.

Maybe somebody doesn't want to have the potential for you falsely arresting them for things which aren't crimes, then trying to unlawfully keep his gun.

Attitudes of gun owners toward dealing with the police don't come out of thin air. Oddly enough, when police give people reasons not to trust them, they stop trusting them.

 

[BlisteringSilence]

Irony: Exercising the rights law enforcement is sworn to protect makes you suspect.

"If you comply, I will go easy on you".. sounds a lot like "acknowledge my ability to ruin you by forgoing your rights and I may use my discretion in your favor".

See, my issue with this is that you're assuming that your rights are limited and one sided:

You have the right to remain silent. What does this mean? It means that you don't, legally, have to answer any or all of my questions. It also means that you have the option, legally, to answer any or all of my questions. The decision is totally up to you.

Why is this important? Because I have a tremendous amount of discretion, and the only thing that pisses me off worse that criminals is liars. If you're upfront and honest with me, and don't bull**** me, I can be your best friend. When you start lying to me (or even worse, keep lying to me after I've caught you in a lie), it's over.

I don't charge people with crimes. That's the prosecutor's office's job. I just recommend the charges, and back them up with evidence.

But, like my advice has been all along, be pleasant, polite, and honest, and everything will turn out OK. Remember that the guy on the other side of those sunglasses is a human being too (unless he works for the state police. they remove your humanity in the academy, and don't give it back until you've made sergeant), and therefore he is subject to the same day-to-day crap that you are.

I don't object to holding all LEO's to a higher standard with regard to their obeying the law: rather, I totally agree with it.

But when you expect us to cease being humans with emotions and personalities, and

... demand that law enforcement community to obey the law...to the letter...

, that's (in my not-so-humble opinion) just absurd. There's a reason we have people involved in the system. Would you prefer that we go to a UK-style surveillance state, where the police just record you committing a crime and then arrest you later?

I sure as hell wouldn't.

And to address some other comments from when I was out playing this weekend:

... Being "liked" by people [the police] with no concern for my welfare doesn't count.

See, this isn't fair. I am concerned for your welfare. That's why I do this thankless, grossly underpaid job. Not to mention, I work very hard at being approachable, friendly, and polite to everyone I come in contact with, regardless of the situation or surroundings. Why wouldn't you extend me the same courtesy? I realize you don't have to, but good God man, get a heart!

They'll enforce those laws according to law or there will be consequences. That's completely nonnegotiable on my part.

I mean, if you really insist, I promise that in my dealings with you, I will recommend that you be prosecuted and sentenced to the fullest extent of every and all punishment(s) for whatever law(s) I catch you breaking.

We had an exercise the other night at a training class:

Street race between two high school students. 90 in a 70 on the freeway, one gets away, one had a little bit of pot (less than an ounce) in the car along with a pipe. We watched the (simulated) traffic stop, and then were asked at the conclusion of the stop, what (if anything) we would charge the driver with.

There were a total of 12 possible violations. Of the 15 of us, 4 wrote for 3, 8 wrote for 4, and the other 3 wrote for 5.

What influenced the drastic difference between potential charges and actual charges?

The kid's attitude.

Just a thought.

 

[BlisteringSilence]

Search this site for "Fairfax County" and "false arrest" and you'll see why.

Maybe somebody doesn't want to have the potential for you falsely arresting them for things which aren't crimes, then trying to unlawfully keep his gun.

Attitudes of gun owners toward dealing with the police don't come out of thin air. Oddly enough, when police give people reasons not to trust them, they stop trusting them.

OK, I performed such a search. I found a thread from June, 2004, and a thread from June, 2008.

Apparently, if you live in Fairfax County, VA, you should leave your handguns, concealed or otherwise, at home in June of 2012.

What I don't understand is the impact this has on either: (1) how you interact with the police in your home jurisdiction (in my case, 1,000 miles and 3 states away), or (2) the price of tea in China.

Law enforcement is at its core a local issue. I can't speak to the actions your LEOs take in whatever battle zone in which you live in Ohio.

You're cherry picking examples, and using them to shape your proposed actions and responses nationwide. While that is most certainly your right, I would argue that your approaches would cause more problems that they would solve down here where I live. But again, that's your right.

 

[Wastemore]

See, my issue with this is that you're assuming that your rights are limited and one sided:

Blistering,
Forgive me as I am barely a functioning illiterate and frequently do a poor job at making my point.

I am aware that my rights are not limited and/or one sided. My point was that if I happen to exercise my 'right to remain silent', the person who's commissioned to protect those rights(generally) views me as a liar, a criminal or as if I have something to hide for not forgoing those rights when he requests.
Like you, I act/react according to how I am addressed/approached..

 

[BlisteringSilence]

Blistering,
I am aware that my rights are not limited and/or one sided. My point was that if I happen to exercise my 'right to remain silent', the person who's commissioned to protect those rights(generally) views me as a liar, a criminal or as if I have something to hide for not forgoing those rights when he requests.
Like you, I act/react according to how I am addressed/approached..

That's a fair point.

Me, personally, I don't view those in invoke as a liar or a criminal, not at first anyway. But I certainly think that they have something to hide.

Around here, about the only folks (my previous post to the contrary, I was trying to use hyperbole to make a point) that invoke are experienced criminals, lawyers, and the kids that go to the liberal arts college up the road.

What that means is that unless you're driving a car that costs more than $40K, I am going to assume you're hiding something. It's called profiling. When we get intel on what the bad guys are telling the other bad guys to say and do, we adjust our profiles accordingly.

It sucks that rights-wielding gun owners might get caught in the middle, but (to use the time-warn expression), if you didn't do anything wrong, you have nothing to fear, at least from me.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

you don't see?! surely you can see how a couple cops outa 1400 plus should color your every move. i mean if you have a working system that gives you 50/50 results why take a chance on doing better when three folks mistake scares you so bad. b think of the odds man! the horror!

 

[Deanimator]

I mean, if you really insist, I promise that in my dealings with you, I will recommend that you be prosecuted and sentenced to the fullest extent of every and all punishment(s) for whatever law(s) I catch you breaking.

If I'm breaking the law and you're not, I have no business complaining.

I'm from Chicago. If the police there confined themselves to enforcing the letter of the law, their reputation would be improved 1,000 fold.

Believe it or not, I don't want to break the law, nor do I believe that having a CHL entitles me to "breaks". I make VERY sure that I don't do rolling stops OR speed here. I don't drink and drive, if for no other reason that I'm almost always carrying and NEVER drink and carry. Last Monday and Wednesday, I drove across all or most of three states. I set my cruise control for the posted speed limit and stuck to it.

I always find it surreal when cops are astonished that I DON'T want anything to do with them or the "system" and am willing to go out of my way to not break the law or have anything to do with them.

I don't WANT to "get away with" stuff. I want to be left alone. Not doing that "stuff" is a good albeit not foolproof way to be left alone.

 

[Deanimator]

What I don't understand is the impact this has on either: (1) how you interact with the police in your home jurisdiction (in my case, 1,000 miles and 3 states away), or (2) the price of tea in China.

Shootings of LEOs by people with CHLs are vanishingly rare, yet we're told that THAT justifies disarming us in traffic or pretext stops. And yes, there are improper pretext stops in which the LEO LIES about why you were stopped. I've seen it myself.

I have absolutely NOTHING in the world to lose by not talking to the police in any way not REQUIRED by law. I have EVERYTHING to lose.

Me talking to cops when it's not required is as foolish as a cop doing a 2:00am traffic stop with his gun and vest in the trunk of his car.

 

[Deanimator]

you don't see?! surely you can see how a couple cops outa 1400 plus should color your every move

Kind of how like the trivial number of cops shot by people with valid CHLs justifies disarming everyone of us during a traffic stop?

I have nothing to gain and everything to lose by talking to police when not REQUIRED.

 

[Wastemore]

I don't WANT to "get away with" stuff. I want to be left alone.

Like you, I avoid all contact with law enforcement which mean I watch my speed, mind my own business and avoid any place where confrontation might take place. I don't want to be bothered for any reason. It really is that simple...

 

[Deanimator]

Like you, I avoid all contact with law enforcement which mean I watch my speed, mind my own business and avoid any place where confrontation might take place. I don't want to be bothered for any reason. It really is that simple...

I saw one of the stupidest threads I've ever run across on the PAFOA forums last year.

If things occurred as described, indeed the LEO involved was stupid for trying to snatch the OP's firearm from behind without warning.

But what struck me was the OP's introductory statement that he was in a bar "with a history of drug activity and violence" when the encounter took place. I'm sure he didn't care for my asking why he was KNOWINGLY in such a place AT ALL.

I hate stupid people. That's why I avoid them at all costs, as well as avoiding the places where they congregate, get intoxicated and hit each other and commit various other crimes. A surprising number of people don't understand why I do that.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

I hate stupid people. That's why I avoid them at all costs, as well as avoiding the places where they congregate, get intoxicated and hit each other and commit various other crimes. A surprising number of people don't understand why I do that.


QFT
on this we agree
had a coworker arrested once "the cops were picking on him" asked why he was pulled over " i had my feet out the window" ( and yes he said feet plural) i asked the cop if that was true and when he said yes i left him in jail

 

[Art Eatman]

Gone circular, which is to be expected in a six-page thread.