Okay, you 'ol timers.

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USSR

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Went to my favourite LGS yesterday. They generally have reloading supplies and components that they pick up from gun shops that have gone out of business, and mark them down at a good price. So, there's this cannister of Winchester 450 LS there. Never heard of it, but the label is marked for target shotshell loads, so I figure it's gotta be useable for handgun loads. Get it home and start my research. Double-base ball powder that came out in the early 60's and was available until the early 70's. Was replaced by 452AA in the 70's, which was eventually replaced by WST. Dug out my Speer #8 reloading manual from 1970, and there is load data for the .38 Special and .45 ACP, but nothing else. That's fine, as that's what I intend to use it for. The one thing I found strange was that the Speer #8 manual specified using magnum primers with it, even with the light .38 wadcutter loads. So, I have to surmise that it's a bit hard to light up. Any of you 'ol timers got any other info or favourite loads using it? Thanks in advance for your reply.

Don
 
USSR wrote:
Double-base ball powder that came out in the early 60's and was available until the early 70's...
Click to expand...

Following up on bds's inquiry; you should really open it up, pour some out, look at it carefully for the presence of anything that looks like rust and give it a good sniff look for acidic odors (not the odors of solvents). Even the youngest cans of that powder would be pushing 50 years of age and eligible for AARP membership. Modern powders are highly stable, but that powder is not really a modern powder, so if it is still good, count your blessings and use it up quickly.
 
Don, when i look in my old book with the overland stage coach on it. Page 386 45 acp shows the 185 cast & 200 cast wadcutters are not using mag primers.... maybe recheck for the 45..
all the best dirt
 
searching comes up with a few things...similar to AA452 burning rate...it is Italian make...

one suggestion...hodgdon powder is the keeper now of wincherster/olin powders...give them a call and see what they say?

913-362-9455
 
Speer #8 and many older manuals used to take the time to recommend and test ball powders with magnum primers instead of using standard primers with all .38 Special loads and magnum primers with all .357 Magnum loads. They went by the powder and not the name of the cartridge. You will also see in Speer #8 they used a magnum primer with HS-6/W540 and HS-7/W571. They knew ball powders perform better when a magnum primer is used.

I use a magnum primer with HS-6 and a few other slower ball powders. Don, I suggest you do a test run with both primers and use the one that produces the most consistent velocities and accuracy.
 
dirtman said:
Don, when i look in my old book with the overland stage coach on it. Page 386 45 acp shows the 185 cast & 200 cast wadcutters are not using mag primers.... maybe recheck for the 45..
all the best dirt
Click to expand...

Yeah, the .45 ACP loads are not using mag primers, but the .38 Special loads including 148gr wadcutter loads are.

Don
 
USSR said:
bds,

Cannister is sealed. But shaking it, it sounds like any other ball powder does, so I'm sure it's fine.

Don
Click to expand...


Break the seal and sniff it. The latest 1990's Vihtavuori powder I tossed smelled like a combination of ammonia with red peppers. I have tossed out jugs of mid 1990's powders that have gone back, in the jug. They were all stored in a controlled environment.If I had known that gunpowders had a shelf life, I would have bought less.

Gunpowder is not immortal.

SONQaMa.jpg

Now, unless estate sale gunpowder is almost a give away, and is not earlier than 1990, I am not interested. I also won't buy anymore surplus powders, about 75% of the military surplus powders I bought went bad and had to be poured out. What surprised me most was the amount of Accurate Arms powder I have had to toss.

If the powder is not clumped up in the can, smells "sweet", shoot it up and shoot it as quickly as possible.

My Speer No 8 shows data for the 38 Special, 148 LSWC. Start load, 3.1 grains for 698 fps. Max load, 4.1 910 fps. For the 158 LSWC, start load 4.0 grains for 822 fps, max load, 4.5 grains 938 fps. There is data for the 38 S&W with a 158, you can find that on page 358. Nothing jumping out at me in my 41st Lyman manual. I have not kept any other old reloading manuals, don't see a need to.
 
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Slamfire,

I know you have had bad luck with old powders. Myself, on the other hand, have had nothing but good luck. Two years ago I bought several pounds of old AA#2 powder and W571 (HS-7) from the same LGS, and the powder is as good as new. Normal smell, shoots well, and zero sign of deterioration. Ball powders seem to hold up really well in that aspect. When I am ready to use the 450 LS powder I will unseal it, but not before. Oh, and BTW, not a single person has said to me "Yeah, I remember that powder", which I find quite odd. Must be all the 'ol timers that were reloading in the sixties have gone on to the happy hunting grounds.

Don
 
I don’t understand the appeal of working up a load for a 50+ year out of production powder. It may be cheap but is it really cheap enough to make the effort worthwhile? Even free wouldn’t tempt me.

Powder is a cost in reloading, but still is the least costly of most of my handgun reload components by round
 
berettaprofessor said:
I don’t understand the appeal of working up a load for a 50+ year out of production powder. It may be cheap but is it really cheap enough to make the effort worthwhile? Even free wouldn’t tempt me.

Powder is a cost in reloading, but still is the least costly of most of my handgun reload components by round
Click to expand...

berettaprofessor,

Actually the price, and yes it was low, was not the primary factor in my decision to buy it or some of the other out of production powders I have bought such as W571, but rather the thirst for knowledge. I would like to try just about about every powder ever made that is suitable for the handguns I presently own, just so I can make comparisons to current powders and be able to give knowledgeable answers to reloading questions. Ah, the thirst for knowledge, it is a never ending quest.

Don
 
I have seen where some have said "made in usa"...and yet later you find out its Norma or ADI or some such...but ah well...I DID find this info...you might be able to extrapolate what you can from that load info possibly? Regardless...insert standard disclaimer here that I am not responsible yada yada ya.


3 Dr.Eq. 1 1/8 oz. #7 1/2
Winchester Trap Load
21.0 grs WC-450-LS
1,202 fps
9,600 psi

2 1/2 Dr.Eq. 1 1/8 oz. #7 1/2
Smokeless Handload
16.0 grs. WC-450-LS
6,900 psi


As for old powder at estate sales...yeah the sniff test is important but I made out with 6 lbs of WAP, 5 lbs of AA2520 and 3 lbs of W231 for about 50 bucks.
WAP isn't sold anymore but the formula was sold/passed to Ramshot and sold as silhouette so updated data is still out there.
 
Yeah, I did see that shotshell info, thanks db_tanker. I reload shotshells, but without any info as to what wads were used, that info is pretty much worthless.

Don
 
I had an 8 Lb jug of N-130 go bad before it was 15 years old. I have some SRB-118 (Surplus from AA) powder that still smells and shoots like it did 20+ years ago. Same goes for some H-322 I have. Go figure. Some powder, and not by brand, lasts longer. Conditions are key, but sometimes it just goes bad quickly, and other times it last 40 years and is good to go.

But I agree with Slamfire, I am not as quick to buy a lot of powder at a time anymore.
 
Walkalong said:
But I agree with Slamfire, I am not as quick to buy a lot of powder at a time anymore.
Click to expand...
I hear ya.... but darn after that last dry spell, where i was lucky to get anything and the shelf was getting empty.... I have now bought enough where maybe some will spoil over time.... wouldn't that be nice..... dirt
 
This is from loaddata.com: A jar of Unique powder sits on the shelf at the Alliant Powder plant in Radford, Virginia. The Unique in the jar was made in 1899 and still performs to original specifications.
I have read this many times over the years and have never seen anybody say it wasn't true. I have primers from the 80's and it never even occured to me they may not be any good. I have some IMR4350 that's about 25 years old. From time to time I smell and look at it and it's still fine.
 
I'll take a chance with an old/common powder I have and know the history of, after inspecting it.
Having said that, I'd never roll the dice and buy OLD powder, especially something uncommon, with hard to find/scarce data.
Slamfire: some scary pics, thanks for posting.
:D
 
db_tanker said:
searching comes up with a few things...similar to AA452 burning rate...it is Italian make...

one suggestion...hodgdon powder is the keeper now of wincherster/olin powders...give them a call and see what they say?

913-362-9455
Click to expand...

I called them regarding an 8# can of Win. 540 a friend gave me.
They crossed it right over for me. No problem. ;)
 
warnerwh said:
This is from loaddata.com: A jar of Unique powder sits on the shelf at the Alliant Powder plant in Radford, Virginia. The Unique in the jar was made in 1899 and still performs to original specifications.
I have read this many times over the years and have never seen anybody say it wasn't true. I have primers from the 80's and it never even occured to me they may not be any good. I have some IMR4350 that's about 25 years old. From time to time I smell and look at it and it's still fine.
Click to expand...

Hercules is out of business, but someone should have sued Hercules for mis representation. Sure, they have that powder in a bottle. And they were conducting tests on dried samples. But they never said what the shelf life was for powder out of the water jar. As I understand it, once they dried the sample they immediately tested the stuff. Powder under water outgasses nitric acid gas, just like it does out of water. The water absorbs the nitric acid gas and keeps the powder cool. I am aware of the US Navy storing old deteriorated gunpowder under water, prior to demilling. Water also attacks the powder grain, breaking it down. However, once out of the water gunpowder deteriorates faster than it would have if it had never gotten wet.

This ad, from 1936, a shelf life of 20 years was worth bragging about.

GD1NQq7.jpg

I have written extensively about the dangers of old gunpowder, and anyone who wants to get hurt, old gunpowder will do the trick. While many in the collective shooting community are in denial about this, old gunpowder gets dangerous with age for a number of reasons. These are threads which I provided information on old gunpowder and old ammunition.

Old Powder Caused Fire!
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=788841


Old powder

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=787843


Shelf life of reloads?

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=758305


Look at the pictures in this thread:


Has anyone else had Vihtavuori N140 corrode in loaded ammo?

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3745264
 
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