Old 9mm brass update….here goes

[9mmGoon]

To those, including myself, who questioned the accuracy of my scale, i can undoubtedly say it is spot on. I received my brand new Ohaus triple beam scale today and confirmed the accuracy of my little hornady digital scale with dang near every object i could weigh with it. Including powder charges.

It was suggested to pull bullets and verify charge weights. Of 200 pulled i found no greater than .2 grains of difference.

200 bullets weighed found no greater than .7 grains of difference. Go Hornady!

Testing set back. This will be interesting.
Some of you know i loaded 50 in brand new Remington brass as well as 50 in range brass “terrifying” and today i shot the Remington with no failures. What about the range brass?
Here’s the interesting part. Of the 200 i pulled i ran 45 of them through the gun racking the slide. I measured each one before and after. 31 did not move. 14 set back 2 thousandths or less. This prompted me to test the newly assembled Remington and range brass loads.
Remington performed flawlessly, the range brass was a different result. Perhaps i shoulve separated and loaded them in batches according to headstamp because i had some serious set back in those that felt softer than others. Of the softer feeling brass, the setback was unimaginable from 10 to 25 thousandths. I was particularly surprised to find two of them were Hornady…what? Absolutely . I immediately snatched the defensive rounds out of my magazine and started looking. Sure enough! I found 2 with considerable setback in that magazine. Probably due to being racked and unloaded. So then i tested two more by simply pushing down on them and i was able to nearly bury the bullet. Shocking.

So after all that pain of bullet pulling and powder dumping and weighing this, and weighing that, i still have no answer if its the old brass causing the failures. It could be, yes, but it could also be setback. As i have learned it appears it can happen if i set my bell die to a particular case of a particular length and hardness and If perhaps a softer case comes along it could get an excessive amount of bell thus making it prone to setback. Or perhaps the case i set my bell with had a little more spring back than others and i over belled some of them as a result. I will just have to test the rest of my loads with the “mash on it test” and see if i can find a squishy one.
I tell you this though, i haven’t found a single one of mine as squishy as these factory Hornady defense rounds.

For me, its still up in the air until i find the smoking bullet, per say.

 

[LiveLife]

Testing set back ... Perhaps i shoulve separated and loaded them in batches according to headstamp because i had some serious set back ... was unimaginable from 10 to 25 thousandths.

... defensive rounds out of my magazine and ... found 2 with considerable setback in that magazine. Probably due to being racked and unloaded. So then i tested two more by simply pushing down on them and i was able to nearly bury the bullet. Shocking.

Yes, 10 to 25 thousandths is significant setback. I prefer no bullet setback but expect around/less than .005" with mixed range brass depending on headstamp - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...al-on-progressive-press.921633/#post-12684520

Repeated chamberings from the magazine can keep seating the bullet deeper as bullet nose bump the feed ramp. Being able to push the bullet down to powder charge is shocking indeed.

Sounds like you have neck tension issue. Poor neck tension and significant bullet setback could result from insufficient resizing of case neck, too much expanding/flare, thin case wall, too much crimp that reduces/deforms bullet with brass spring back, etc. that warrants investigation.

To those, including myself, who questioned the accuracy of my scale, i can undoubtedly say it is spot on.

How can you be sure?

I received my brand new Ohaus triple beam scale today and confirmed the accuracy of my little hornady digital scale with dang near every object i could weigh with it. Including powder charges.

It was suggested to pull bullets and verify charge weights. Of 200 pulled i found no greater than .2 grains of difference.

Verifying accuracy of a scale with another scale is like trying to tell time with two watches. You can verify two watches are synchronized but what if both are off?

Better way to verify accuracy of any scale, whether beam or digital, is by using check weights - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...st-set-up-with-unlimited-budget.912629/page-3

$27 is cheap insurance for "Made in USA" Troemner ASTM Class 6 stainless/aluminum check weight set that goes down to 0.5 gr (I also have Ohaus check weight set that goes down to 0.015 gr) - https://www.amazon.com/Troemner-1512-111-50GN-0-5GN-Certificate-Stainless/dp/B078H4P55D/ref=sr_1_8

For me, while 0.1 gr resolution is "good enough" for reloading, it's nice to be able to actually verify sensitivity/detection of scale down to actually 0.1 gr check weight - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-unlimited-budget.912629/page-2#post-12726260

 

[noylj]

9x19 cases have the largest variation in wall thickness.
When I reload, I always do a thumb push test after bullet seating but before crimp. Any cartridge where the bullet moves at all is thrown away
I hate plated bullets and one issue has been undersized bullets.
I prefer 357" bullets over 355 or 356". Seem a bit more accurate and neck tension is better.
Before I ever start loading, I create two dummy rounds, verifying die set up and that the COL is correct for that bullet and both dummy rounds feed through the magazine and chamber and COL dorsn't change.
Then I start loading.

 

[lordpaxman]

Thanks for the report, it is a mystery.

I tell you this though, i haven’t found a single one of mine as squishy as these factory Hornady defense rounds.

IIR there were several SD rounds that experienced this particularly with .40. I know I had some but they were Federal. There was a way to return them for properly tensioned rounds. I don’t have any more info than that.

For me, it’s still up in the air until i find the smoking bullet, per se.

Would still love to hear the chrono readings. I once had a jug of rifle powder that was a bit too energetic, and there were no recalls on it. I do have some older CFE Pistol if we could compare somehow.

 

[CQB45ACP]

To those, including myself, who questioned the accuracy of my scale, i can undoubtedly say it is spot on. I received my brand new Ohaus triple beam scale today and confirmed the accuracy of my little hornady digital scale with dang near every object i could weigh with it. Including powder charges.

It was suggested to pull bullets and verify charge weights. Of 200 pulled i found no greater than .2 grains of difference.

200 bullets weighed found no greater than .7 grains of difference. Go Hornady!

Testing set back. This will be interesting.
Some of you know i loaded 50 in brand new Remington brass as well as 50 in range brass “terrifying” and today i shot the Remington with no failures. What about the range brass?
Here’s the interesting part. Of the 200 i pulled i ran 45 of them through the gun racking the slide. I measured each one before and after. 31 did not move. 14 set back 2 thousandths or less. This prompted me to test the newly assembled Remington and range brass loads.
Remington performed flawlessly, the range brass was a different result. Perhaps i shoulve separated and loaded them in batches according to headstamp because i had some serious set back in those that felt softer than others. Of the softer feeling brass, the setback was unimaginable from 10 to 25 thousandths. I was particularly surprised to find two of them were Hornady…what? Absolutely . I immediately snatched the defensive rounds out of my magazine and started looking. Sure enough! I found 2 with considerable setback in that magazine. Probably due to being racked and unloaded. So then i tested two more by simply pushing down on them and i was able to nearly bury the bullet. Shocking.

So after all that pain of bullet pulling and powder dumping and weighing this, and weighing that, i still have no answer if its the old brass causing the failures. It could be, yes, but it could also be setback. As i have learned it appears it can happen if i set my bell die to a particular case of a particular length and hardness and If perhaps a softer case comes along it could get an excessive amount of bell thus making it prone to setback. Or perhaps the case i set my bell with had a little more spring back than others and i over belled some of them as a result. I will just have to test the rest of my loads with the “mash on it test” and see if i can find a squishy one.
I tell you this though, i haven’t found a single one of mine as squishy as these factory Hornady defense rounds.

For me, its still up in the air until i find the smoking bullet, per se.

I can’t recall the original issue…could you please repeat it in detail?

Kidding of course. But if you let others guide your future actions too much, you’ll never be done with this

 

[higgite]

As I recall from your original thread, all of your old brass was the same age and some failed but most didn’t and you have now discovered setback issues, I’d bet the farm that your blowouts were due to setback, not old brass. ymmv

 

[Charlie98]

Perhaps i shoulve separated and loaded them in batches according to headstamp

That's why I separate all of my brass into headstamp lots, and, if possible, further lots depending on the headstamp. No, it's not scientific, but I have noted differences in brass... say 'old' WW vs 'new' WW brass, etc, etc. 9mm is of particular concern for me because of the high pressures.

 

[Palladan44]

My Dillon resizing die really does a good job l. You can see a "bulge" sometimes around the back of the bullet from the neck tension. No setback happening there.

 

[JohnMc]

My Dillon resizing die really does a good job l. You can see a "bulge" sometimes around the back of the bullet from the neck tension. No setback happening there.

Same with my Lee die.

 

[Howa 9700]

I'm still trying to understand the mechanism of blown case. How an otherwise sound, once fired brass case could suffer a blowout in a normal chamber. Would think an overcharge or high pressure situation would simply blow the case out the back and damage the frame or slide.

Also, since the first thread, tried resizing some supposedly once fired F-C cases and with about 1 in 5......it was a hard pull. Inspecting those, found no evidence of a split, but when I measured, all of them were at least 0.010 larger in diameter, measured about 1x the width of the caliper jaws just above the extractor groove. Was not a bump, but more like a bubble. How does that happen when case is supposed to still be in the supported chamber? By the time it is extracted, would think the pressure would have dropped off to minimal levels.

As to plight of OP, if cases are brittle due to chemical change, would think you could whack such a case with a hammer and it would shatter? If not, hard to see how a once fired case would blow out in a normal situation.

 

[1-cavediver]

We shoot USPSA so we load a lot of 9mm. I use 95% range pickup brass, I don’t sort by head stamp and I don’t weigh my brass. I size with Lee carbide dies and I crimp with a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die. I don’t get any setback, my bullets stay put!

 

[Walkalong]

Mixed 9MM brass can vary greatly in case wall thickness. You have to make sure you have plenty of neck tension on the thinnest ones.

If you don’t, either your sizer is too large, or your expander is too large, or a little of both. It’s easy to check, load some thin brass without expanding and if you don’t have enough neck tension your sizer is too big. If not, that’s ok, and your expander is to big.

Or scrap all the thin cases.

 

[CQB45ACP]

Mixed 9MM brass can vary greatly in case wall thickness. You have to make sure you have plenty of neck tension on the thinnest ones.

If you don’t, either your sizer is too large, or your expander is too large, or a little of both. It’s easy to check, load some thin brass without expanding and if you don’t have enough neck tension your sizer is too big. If not, that’s ok, and your expander is to big.

Or scrap all the thin cases.

This complexity is why I started sorting by headstamp. If nothing else there is a consistent feel.

 

[film495]

how easy did it feel to seat the bullets? how are you cleaning the inside of the cases? new or really clean brass will grip much more than the little layer of carbon residue that is often still inside cases on the brass, but - I don't get setback from that as long as the cases have been cleaned. Is there lube left on the brass? they really should not set back, it should be almost impossible to move the bullet if it is seated correctly and has a good grip between the bullet and the case. good job doing the QA and picking up on it, and as usual it will turn out to be something that seems obvious once you put it together. That's how it always works for me.

 

[Palladan44]

There are certain bullets I load into mixed headstamps that just seem to not care as much. I load Xtreme plated 124gr target hollow points into mixed range brass. (I try to cull any pesky ones like s&b, herters or crimped military ones so I don't get "crunchy" repriming strokes.) But these bullets load into any brass without any issues with neck tension.

Move over to other jacketed bullets with more "crisp" corners to the base, I begin noticing more variances in the loadings based on brass differences. Then I'll typically find a specific headstamp that works the best and run em. If anything, excessive neck tension begins to be the problem (not lacking) I have bullets that will seat crooked regardless whether I change any one of the following things.
1) Seater stem profiles
2) Using a sleeved seater stem
3)Using more flare/expanding
4) Raising the resizing die to any varying amount of height. (I have a couple 9s with really loose chambers, so many brass will be bulged assymetrically, thus needing to be properly and fully resized. I do not have a push through resizer nor a bulge buster.)

I simply find a headstamp that works best with the bullet.

If anyone has any other suggestions, please let me know.

 

[9mmGoon]

Mixed 9MM brass can vary greatly in case wall thickness. You have to make sure you have plenty of neck tension on the thinnest ones.

If you don’t, either your sizer is too large, or your expander is too large, or a little of both. It’s easy to check, load some thin brass without expanding and if you don’t have enough neck tension your sizer is too big. If not, that’s ok, and your expander is to big.

Or scrap all the thin cases.

Im seriously considering a set of Redding dies. Particularly the old steel resizer.

 

[9mmGoon]

Yes, 10 to 25 thousandths is significant setback. I prefer no bullet setback but expect around/less than .005" with mixed range brass depending on headstamp - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...al-on-progressive-press.921633/#post-12684520

Repeated chamberings from the magazine can keep seating the bullet deeper as bullet nose bump the feed ramp. Being able to push the bullet down to powder charge is shocking indeed.

Sounds like you have neck tension issue. Poor neck tension and significant bullet setback could result from insufficient resizing of case neck, too much expanding/flare, thin case wall, too much crimp that reduces/deforms bullet with brass spring back, etc. that warrants investigation.


How can you be sure?


Verifying accuracy of a scale with another scale is like trying to tell time with two watches. You can verify two watches are synchronized but what if both are off?

Better way to verify accuracy of any scale, whether beam or digital, is by using check weights - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...st-set-up-with-unlimited-budget.912629/page-3

$27 is cheap insurance for "Made in USA" Troemner ASTM Class 6 stainless/aluminum check weight set that goes down to 0.5 gr (I also have Ohaus check weight set that goes down to 0.015 gr) - https://www.amazon.com/Troemner-1512-111-50GN-0-5GN-Certificate-Stainless/dp/B078H4P55D/ref=sr_1_8

For me, while 0.1 gr resolution is "good enough" for reloading, it's nice to be able to actually verify sensitivity/detection of scale down to actually 0.1 gr check weight - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-unlimited-budget.912629/page-2#post-12726260

I have check weights.

 

[Charlie98]

Im seriously considering a set of Redding dies. Particularly the old steel resizer.

Why? A steel sizer is just adding the complexity of having to lube all of the cases prior to sizing. FWIW, a good carbide or titanium nitride die will work fine, it's the other parts of the process that need scrutiny.

 

[9mmGoon]

Thanks for the report, it is a mystery.

IIR there were several SD rounds that experienced this particularly with .40. I know I had some but they were Federal. There was a way to return them for properly tensioned rounds. I don’t have any more info than that.

Would still love to hear the chrono readings. I once had a jug of rifle powder that was a bit too energetic, and there were no recalls on it. I do have some older CFE Pistol if we could compare somehow.

I get 1020-1050 fps

 

[9mmGoon]

Why? A steel sizer is just adding the complexity of having to lube all of the cases prior to sizing. FWIW, a good carbide or titanium nitride die will work fine, it's the other parts of the process that need scrutiny.

As an old guy, ive discovered sometimes the old way was better. Plus i dont load very many at a time anyway…and just to see for myself basically. I hsve no idea what fwiw is lol

 

[Charlie98]

Plus i dont load very many at a time anyway…and just to see for myself basically

Well... inquiring minds want to know, I guess.

I have handloads I pour a lot of time and effort into... 9mm is not one of those.

 

[9mmGoon]

I'm still trying to understand the mechanism of blown case. How an otherwise sound, once fired brass case could suffer a blowout in a normal chamber. Would think an overcharge or high pressure situation would simply blow the case out the back and damage the frame or slide.

Also, since the first thread, tried resizing some supposedly once fired F-C cases and with about 1 in 5......it was a hard pull. Inspecting those, found no evidence of a split, but when I measured, all of them were at least 0.010 larger in diameter, measured about 1x the width of the caliper jaws just above the extractor groove. Was not a bump, but more like a bubble. How does that happen when case is supposed to still be in the supported chamber? By the time it is extracted, would think the pressure would have dropped off to minimal levels.

As to plight of OP, if cases are brittle due to chemical change, would think you could whack such a case with a hammer and it would shatter? If not, hard to see how a once fired case would blow out in a normal situation.

I don’t understand it either. Frustrated is an understatement

 

[9mmGoon]

I can’t recall the original issue…could you please repeat it in detail?

Kidding of course. But if you let others guide your future actions too much, you’ll never be done with this

Right on lol,,,,im not loading any more of that old brass until i either find one that i loaded improperly or get em to some type of expert that knows how to test this type of alloy.
Unfortunately in the process i have unearthed a new problem with range brass. Well maybe not a problem but definitely something to watch out for. That’s a ways off as i have some newish Remington brass to play with for now.

 

[9mmGoon]

As I recall from your original thread, all of your old brass was the same age and some failed but most didn’t and you have now discovered setback issues, I’d bet the farm that your blowouts were due to setback, not old brass. ymmv

I discovered an issue with set back in some factory Hornady rounds and some range brass i reloaded.

 

[9mmGoon]

I'm still trying to understand the mechanism of blown case. How an otherwise sound, once fired brass case could suffer a blowout in a normal chamber. Would think an overcharge or high pressure situation would simply blow the case out the back and damage the frame or slide.

Also, since the first thread, tried resizing some supposedly once fired F-C cases and with about 1 in 5......it was a hard pull. Inspecting those, found no evidence of a split, but when I measured, all of them were at least 0.010 larger in diameter, measured about 1x the width of the caliper jaws just above the extractor groove. Was not a bump, but more like a bubble. How does that happen when case is supposed to still be in the supported chamber? By the time it is extracted, would think the pressure would have dropped off to minimal levels.

As to plight of OP, if cases are brittle due to chemical change, would think you could whack such a case with a hammer and it would shatter? If not, hard to see how a once fired case would blow out in a normal situation.

I smashed a few an a vice half way between the case mouth and base. Some split open leading me to believe they’re brittle. Plus they are noticeably harder in the resizing and bell die.