Old Reloading Books

frjeff

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Bought a used old (2007 - 48th Ed) Lyman Reloading Handbook thinking any additional data would broaden my knowledge. The more source info the better, right?
Well, old data may not be too healthy.
My current favored load for my .380ACP is 3.1gr HP38 with 95gr FMJ. Consensus range is 2.9gr to 3.2gr max.
The old Lyman book says 2.1gr to 2.9gr max (WIN231). If 231 and HP38 were the same back then, this is quite a difference!
Today’s minimum load was the max back in the day??
 
Bought a used old (2007 - 48th Ed) Lyman Reloading Handbook thinking any additional data would broaden my knowledge. The more source info the better, right?
Well, old data may not be too healthy.
My current favored load for my .380ACP is 3.1gr HP38 with 95gr FMJ. Consensus range is 2.9gr to 3.2gr max.
The old Lyman book says 2.1gr to 2.9gr max (WIN231). If 231 and HP38 were the same back then, this is quite a difference!
Today’s minimum load was the max back in the day??
What you have discovered is the age-old knowledge that the components and testing methods used make a huge difference in the loading data. The bullet used in Lyman’s 48th is the Sierra 95gr seated to an OAL of 0.900”. Other bullets seated to different depths will have different loads.
Welcome to the world of loading data! 😎
 
There has always been discrepancies like that in reloading data.

Even among contemporary sources (Hornady is famous for its perceived "conservative" data)

There are terabytes of threads on the interwebs discussing the topic since Al Gore invented it.

From my point of view, 99% can be explained by changes/differences in testing procedures, testing conditions, testing equipment, component lots etc, none of which will ever match your exact set of circumstances hence the reason these are considered guidelines and SOP is always "work up" loads in your own firearms.

BTW, Lyman 48th is hardly old! ;)
 
The new sources mostly use electronic pressure testing and it showed dangerous spikes and such in old data that can now be avoided. That said I like to use old data with vintage propellants I obtain. Also there are some data that has been dropped in newer books. Need data for a 25-20 Single Shot or such. That'll take some research LOL.
 
The new sources mostly use electronic pressure testing and it showed dangerous spikes and such in old data that can now be avoided. That said I like to use old data with vintage propellants I obtain. Also there are some data that has been dropped in newer books. Need data for a 25-20 Single Shot or such. That'll take some research LOL.
That’s the truth! I had a Stevens Crackshot .25 SSS for a few years. Great little rifle for shooting raccoons on the run but kinda barrel heavy. I made the mistake of confusing .25WCF with the .25SSS. Not the same!
IMG_1982.jpeg
 
There has always been discrepancies like that in reloading data.

Even among contemporary sources (Hornady is famous for its perceived "conservative" data)

There are terabytes of threads on the interwebs discussing the topic since Al Gore invented it.

From my point of view, 99% can be explained by changes/differences in testing procedures, testing conditions, testing equipment, component lots etc, none of which will ever match your exact set of circumstances hence the reason these are considered guidelines and SOP is always "work up" loads in your own firearms.

BTW, Lyman 48th is hardly old! ;)
I know the current Ed is the 51st, so it does not seem 48 would be old. But, mine says Third Printing April 2007.
Not as old as me, but that’s 16 years…….
The .900 COAL struck me also.
 
I know the current Ed is the 51st, so it does not seem 48 would be old. But, mine says Third Printing April 2007.
Not as old as me, but that’s 16 years…….
The .900 COAL struck me also.
So, have the powders changed significantly over the years?
 
So, have the powders changed significantly over the years?

I don't think HP-38/Win231 have always been the same powder but I can't say for sure.

I do know my "old" Speer #11 manual lists two different ranges for each powder unlike my Lyman books which have charge weight identical for each powder.

That, however, could be because both powders were indeed the same powder but they were tested using different lots.
 
Lyman 49
95 gr FMJ .900
W231/HP38 2.1=2.9

Hornady 8th
100 gr fmj .980 (you can use the next higher bullet)
W231 2.6-3.5

Speer 14
95gr TMJ RN .970
W231 3.6-4.0

So as mention the test/methods/ values vary all over, they all work!
The Speer 95gr FMJ pictured is still available. It is conical with a flat nose, not a round nose bullet. It’s very popular because it has a long shank, giving it more contact with the groove but also allowing deeper seating. I came across some lead cast bullets of the same shape and weight several years ago and regret not buying two lots of them. They’re the most accurate lead bullets I’ve tried in a .380ACP but they don’t feed well in all of my pistols.
Conical profiles seem to do well for accuracy in semi auto pistols but they don’t always feed as well as other profiles in fixed barrel types. I like wadcutters better for scoring but I don’t really keep score.
 
Bought a used old (2007 - 48th Ed) Lyman Reloading Handbook thinking any additional data would broaden my knowledge. The more source info the better, right?
Well, old data may not be too healthy.
My current favored load for my .380ACP is 3.1gr HP38 with 95gr FMJ. Consensus range is 2.9gr to 3.2gr max.
The old Lyman book says 2.1gr to 2.9gr max (WIN231). If 231 and HP38 were the same back then, this is quite a difference!
Today’s minimum load was the max back in the day??

HP38/W231 have always been the same powder. And if you were able to buy HP-38/W231 from the same lot, the only differences between them would be due to statistical variations. As an example, go shoot over a chronograph one lot of ammunition you reloaded. Record the mean, extreme spreads, standard deviations. The shot the same stuff again, the same number of shots is not important. Everything is the same, except your mean, extreme spreads, standard deviations are going to be a little different. In theory, you shoot a large enough sample size, like thousands, the numbers should get very close. But with small sample sizes, nah.

Now, you buy a can of HP-38 and another of W231, and if they are from different lots, the pressure curves will be different. All the powders we buy over the counter are blended to an average pressure curve, plus and minus 10%. You can look that up in a SAAMI spec. SAAMI allows average highs and average lows. You can see the issue in this image:

S0XsIgO.jpg



Due to this, and due to the fact reloading manuals were not buying HP-38 and W231 from the same lot, for decades manuals and gunwriters were able to hide that the powders were in fact, the same. I am quite sure there are lots of duplicate powders on the market, all in different colored bottles, under different brand names. But without sophisticated gas chromatography equipment and pressure gauges, how are we supposed to know?

Today Hodgdon has a licensing to use the Winchester name for gunpowders. Maybe more things. I have no idea of the full extent of the licensing agreement. Winchester is just a brand name, protected, used, licensed just as any other brand name. It is quite certain back in the 1980's that Hodgdon was buying the same powder from the same powder manufacturer, as commercial reloaders have posted that back then, all they had to do was peel off the HP-38 label, and underneath was a W231 mark.

I looked through older Lyman manuals, and probably some others, and I did not find many one to one comparisons of W231 with HP-38. On reflection, I believe the reason was, Hodgdon was not paying for it. I am 100% certain that Lyman calls up powder manufacturers every time they make a new manual and tells them there is a limited amount of space for each cartridge, and that if the powder manufacturer wants their powder on that page, they will have to pay. You see, reloading manuals are a form of advertisement. Reloaders see a list of powders, and one of those will be the powder that they buy.

In my 48th Lyman manual, I see lots more W296 and H110 loads for the same bullet and cartridge, than I do for W231/HP-38. I can only assume that was a Hodgdon business decision. We know now, W296/H110 were also the same. But Winchester and Hodgdon must have been making more profit from those powders, so they paid to have them listed more often.
 
2007? Oh, I thought you said old. I might pay a pretty penny for a 1969 Lyman but not a 2007.

This all reminds me of a Confucius saying: "Man with one reloading manual know exact loads to use. Man with 5 reloading manuals never sure."
 
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HP38/W231 have always been the same powder. And if you were able to buy HP-38/W231 from the same lot, the only differences between them would be due to statistical variations. As an example, go shoot over a chronograph one lot of ammunition you reloaded. Record the mean, extreme spreads, standard deviations. The shot the same stuff again, the same number of shots is not important. Everything is the same, except your mean, extreme spreads, standard deviations are going to be a little different. In theory, you shoot a large enough sample size, like thousands, the numbers should get very close. But with small sample sizes, nah.

Now, you buy a can of HP-38 and another of W231, and if they are from different lots, the pressure curves will be different. All the powders we buy over the counter are blended to an average pressure curve, plus and minus 10%. You can look that up in a SAAMI spec. SAAMI allows average highs and average lows. You can see the issue in this image:

S0XsIgO.jpg



Due to this, and due to the fact reloading manuals were not buying HP-38 and W231 from the same lot, for decades manuals and gunwriters were able to hide that the powders were in fact, the same. I am quite sure there are lots of duplicate powders on the market, all in different colored bottles, under different brand names. But without sophisticated gas chromatography equipment and pressure gauges, how are we supposed to know?

Today Hodgdon has a licensing to use the Winchester name for gunpowders. Maybe more things. I have no idea of the full extent of the licensing agreement. Winchester is just a brand name, protected, used, licensed just as any other brand name. It is quite certain back in the 1980's that Hodgdon was buying the same powder from the same powder manufacturer, as commercial reloaders have posted that back then, all they had to do was peel off the HP-38 label, and underneath was a W231 mark.

I looked through older Lyman manuals, and probably some others, and I did not find many one to one comparisons of W231 with HP-38. On reflection, I believe the reason was, Hodgdon was not paying for it. I am 100% certain that Lyman calls up powder manufacturers every time they make a new manual and tells them there is a limited amount of space for each cartridge, and that if the powder manufacturer wants their powder on that page, they will have to pay. You see, reloading manuals are a form of advertisement. Reloaders see a list of powders, and one of those will be the powder that they buy.

In my 48th Lyman manual, I see lots more W296 and H110 loads for the same bullet and cartridge, than I do for W231/HP-38. I can only assume that was a Hodgdon business decision. We know now, W296/H110 were also the same. But Winchester and Hodgdon must have been making more profit from those powders, so they paid to have them listed more often.
Well then we will have to start all over again for and Accurate Powders:eek:

Testing 5 from a lot of powder is insignificant.
Win powder is usually more expensive the Hodgdon just due to the name,

Powder manufacturers are amazing consistent Plus the actual reloader is gonna be using different primers and brass which will change more things.
 
2007? Oh, I thought you said old. I might pay a pretty penny for a 1969 Lyman but not a 2007.

This all reminds me of a Confucius saying: "Man with one reloading manual know exact loads to use. Many with 5 loading manuals never sure."

Hahaha, this is true.

I have many sources of data but, what with the discrepancies being talked about, it sure can get confusing, especially to a new(er) reloader that doesn't have many years of experience to draw from yet.

That's why I like this place; they're are so many knowledgeable people here!
 
Hodgdon say 95 gr Speer 2.9-3.2 gr W231/HP38

I don't think HP-38/Win231 have always been the same powder but I can't say for sure.

I am of the school of thought that HP38 always came off the same production line as Win 231 but that Hodgdon and Winchester sold slightly different canister specs. Now it all comes out of the same barrel, just gets whichever label Hodgdon has an order for.

I might pay a pretty penny for a 1969 Lyman but not a 2007.

Here is a 1967 for free
 
I have an old Sierra reloading manual! It has a max load for a 44 mag. that 3 grs. more than the new manual. with 2400. Do not know about other powders! I like to read the old manuals for fun but not for max reload info.
I'm just sayin :cool:
 
I have a bunch of my Dad's old reloading books from the 70s and 80s and liked reading through them. Most of the data is very similar to what you'll find on say Hodgdon's website, but remember, load data is what that combination did, primer, case, powder, bullet, chamber, barrel, humidity, temperature, elevation .... on that day during that testing, with that testing method. change a component or two and the results can change more than people think. This is why you start low and work up.
 
Bought a used old (2007 - 48th Ed) Lyman Reloading Handbook thinking any additional data would broaden my knowledge. The more source info the better, right?
Well, old data may not be too healthy.
My current favored load for my .380ACP is 3.1gr HP38 with 95gr FMJ. Consensus range is 2.9gr to 3.2gr max.
The old Lyman book says 2.1gr to 2.9gr max (WIN231). If 231 and HP38 were the same back then, this is quite a difference!
Today’s minimum load was the max back in the day??
My 46th (1982 [7th printing, 1989]) edition lists:
90gr Jacketed HC as 2.1 - 3.2 of W231
100gr JHP as 2.2 - 3.5 of W231
It does not list loads for any 95gr bullets.

P.S. my 46th edition has a price tag of $16.95. Remember the days when every product on the shelf had a price tag on it! LOL!

I also have a 47th edition and 50th edition (I think it is 50th) in the reloading room. I had to buy the 50th edition because my 47th edition didn't list any 50ae loads.

Remember the length of a bullet will determine the case volume left for powder. So a longer 95gr bullet will have a lower charge than a shorter 95gr bullet which will be reflected in load data.

Some where back in time they switched from using small pieces of crushed copper to determine the pressure of a cartridge (C.U.P.) to the electronic pressure sensors they use today. I imagine this would also have a affect on listed loads.
 
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I have purchased a few older manuals at yard/estate sales and auctions, sometimes there is a big (to me) discrepancy between them but mostly they are within .1 or .2gr.
I like to use the websites of the powder and bullet manufactures for their recommendations and then look in a couple of manuals to get an average for a starting point to work up a load (never start at max) anytime I have a new powder, bullet or cartridge.
 
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