Old School AR-15 Options ...

[Swing]

Well, I need to get it out there: I've never been a huge fan of the Armalite family of rifles. I had bad experiences many decades ago, went with other carbines for my personal arms, and never looked back. However, time marched on and the system has become, well, something else. It is the do everything rifle, the reliability issue appears to be a thing of the past, and almost everyone I know owns one. Still, they weren't for me, because the combination of my age and the state of my collection, there was no need.

Flash forward to now and I have a bug in my bonnet for an old school, traditionally styled AR. Question: who makes a reliable, original styled (think M16 or M16A1, minus the happy switch) in 5.56mm? It may be time to revisit the black rifle.

 

[jakk280rem]

Most manufacturers still make a 20" A1 or A2 rifle, they just don't get much press. Colt, BCM, Windham, DPMS, Armalite, Palmetto and RRA all make various flavors of 20" goodness.

 

[Swing]

Hey pally. I didn't realize there was such a variety. Any recommendation on a basic shooter?

 

[rskent]

Any recommendation on a basic shooter?

Check out the sights on the A2. The A1 sights are not anywhere near as nice.
The A1 looks cooler, the A2 shoots cooler.

Just saying.

 

[bannockburn]

Swing

I would say look for a Colt SP1 Sporter on Gunbroker if you're looking for an old school AR15. Quite a few on there that were manufactured in the mid '70's to early '80's.

 

[agtman]

Weren't no A2 sights at Khe Sanh ...

If by "Old School" you mean the classic, early-to-mid '60s 'Nam look, you're getting into a 5.56 Retro AR.

One way in is to consider building your own Retro AR from scratch. A lot of guys have started theirs with an old A1 barrelled upper and then scrounged for the other parts, including a correct lower. That takes time and more than a few dollars. In fact, if you do the research, you'll find guys chasing down a lot of expensive small parts for these builds because they want everything on the rifle (or carbine) to be "period correct."
So the hobby can get spendy ...

Then there's what's behind Door #2 ... See if there's one already built for sale somewhere.

In my case Fulton Armory's FA-15 Retro rifle offered pretty much what I was looking for, with a few exceptions. It's got a 20" tube with the old open 3-prong FH, and the upper is the early "slickside" version. But the barrel's twist is 1-9, not 1-12. For me, that was a nonissue and, frankly, I was really surprised at how accurately this rifle shoots the 55gn generic fodder using the A1 irons. The lower receiver is mostly correct, including the grip, and there's no forward assist. The buttstock is the original (and shorter) A1 version.

Another surprise was how light-weight it is. Despite being a "full-size" 5.56 battle rifle, the FA-15 was lighter than my 16" carbines with the rails and the optics mounted. It shoulders quickly and is easily maneuvered when changing shooting positions. I've put about 800-rds thru it so far with no issues. A lot of fun too.

FA-15 Retro AR.

 

[boricua9mm]

Swing

I would say look for a Colt SP1 Sporter on Gunbroker if you're looking for an old school AR15. Quite a few on there that were manufactured in the mid '70's to early '80's.

Agreed! There are tons of old SP1s out there and they are excellent shooters in addition to being the genuine article.

Some people are very proud of them, but I see them change hands pretty regularly in the $1k-1.2k neighborhood. This isn't too far off the ranch from current Colt pricing.

An SP1 is a neat piece of shootable history. Some people believe they should be relegated to safe queen duty, but they made a ton of them. If it's already been fired, then blast away!

 

[Willie Sutton]

"The A1 looks cooler, the A2 shoots cooler"

Once they are sighted in, they shoot *exactly* the same.


The A1 style AR is a beauty to shoot, for those who've never handled them. Like most military things, as the rifle evolved it got fatter and heavier and more feature-laden. It's funny that many of the current generation "shorties" weigh more than the ol 'Nam-era full length rifle, and that they don't balance as well. A "real" AR can be held at arms length and fired like a huge pistol, and if it's too heavy to do that with, it's just too heavy. There's a reason that many guys are interested in, and spending a lot of time building clones of the earliest generation ARs, and if you start fooling with them it's a sure bet you'll be hooked.

I concur with the suggestion to buy an older SP1 if you want a retro-rifle. Say what you like, but these rifles ought to have "Colt" engraved on the side. They are priced within reach, especially if you find one that's been shot a bit, and are never going to depreciate if cared for.


Willie

.

 

[jakk280rem]

Basic shooter: DPMS, Armalite, Windham
Upgrade: Colt, BCM
And if you want to shoot National Match: Rock River Arms

Another option, build your own. Lots of variety in 20" barrels. Pencil, gov, H-Bar, Bull profiles, stainless or carbon steel and 1:9, 1:8, 1:7, and even 1:12 twists in about any combination.

My own personal choice would be an M16A5 copy. Best blend of old and new school.

 

[joem1945]

Sarco has kits that have what you need to build a retro wxcept the lower. I bought a SP1 complete upper many years ago and made my retro. If I had waited I could have got a flat side for my build.

 

[Paul7]

I bought a Century Arms A-1 that has been great. All Colt parts except for the receiver and a new barrel. I prefer them to the A-2s that are heavier and have a longer stock. Crazy the A-2 is about as heavy as rifles of 100 years ago.

The Century was about half the cost of a Fulton Armory or SP1 A-1.

 

[highpower]

I am a big fan of the retro AR rifles. I traded into a SP1 several months ago and since then I went a little crazy and built a M16-E1 clone and then a XM177-E2. I have had a older AR15-A2 HBAR for many years. There are many ways you can build a Retro AR, but I would recommend a M16 kit as that way you get the correct early A1 upper.

First it was the AR-A2:



Then the SP1:



After that the E2 clone:



The last one, XM177-E2:


Not quite finished yet as I have to finish machining the lower I had engraved:


One last AR, a 607 clone:

 

[Acera]

I assembled this one a while back. Later changed out the birdcage to a 3 prong.

Once you shoot one, you will realize what this rifle was once about, light weight. Not all the modern 'improvements' have been positive.

Things I like to look for in an retro AR.
Rubber buttpad, no trap door.
No forward assist.
Lower receiver without the fences.
Pencil thin barrel and old style sights.

If you want a minor project, try starting with a NoDak Spud retro receiver and building it from there.

You can find some of the parts here, the rest can be found on the internet with a little searching.
http://www.nodakspud.com/AR Lowers.htm

If you find an old M-16 parts kit and you want to put it on a new lower, you can generally use some oil and steel wool to 'age' the finish on the lower to closer match the upper and other parts giving it that used look.

 

[IndianaBoy]

Start here:

http://www.royaltigerimports.com/product-p/ar150011.htm

You will need to find a couple of additional parts with this kit. A1 stock. A few springs. Trigger guard.


I got my kit from Sarco before they sold out but I think Royal Tiger is the only importer left with any of these original Colt kits in stock.

Pick your choice of 20 inch A1 contour barrels. I used a 1-9 twist non-chromed barrel from alpha shooting sports. It is very accurate.

Mckay Enterprises has chrome lined 1-7 twist barrels and I would have gotten one of those but they were out of stock when I was building.

Send your barrel to John Thomas at RetroArms Works. Send the upper and your front sight base along with the barrel. He can drill your new barrel for taper pins. Mine only required one or two clicks of windage to be zeroed, and he will install your barrel and check headspace for you as well.


I didn't have the patience to wait for a Nodak lower, they are very nice but I wasn't interested in building a 'perfect' clone.

 

[agtman]

Well, I submitted my 2-cents back on post #6, but I just want to say this thread is showing the OP some absolutely awesome pictorial examples of "Old School"/Retro ARs.

He's got some great samples to consider, and different ways to get exactly the Retro look he wants.

Excellent thread!

 

[Swing]

OP some absolutely awesome pictorial examples of "Old School"/Retro ARs

Damn straight and thank you all for that. This thread isn't helping my "need" for one.

Anywho, it is good to see there are multiple options. I also didn't know original Colts could be had so reasonably. I figured they'd be way north of the figures mentioned early in the thread.

 

[Grunt]

I guess when it comes to the old SP1 Colts, I was never keen about having to use two screwdrivers to separate the upper and lower. Instead, I went with USGI parts kits, Nodak Spud lower receivers and built my own. When it comes to correct lowers, Mike and Harlan are the go-to guys. I tried using cheap A2 lowers before they came along and while it was in the spirit of retro, it just bugged me. I mean, imagine a correct early 601 upper, buttstock, pistol grip, etc. and then you have the wrong style lower rather than the correct slick side lower there standing out like a sore thumb! No, you don't get a prancing pony or a name on their lowers but at least they do the correct style contours be it slick side, partial fence or full fence lowers depending on what era you are trying to replicate. Oh, and they are excellent quality as well! I would stack their receivers based on quality alone against names like Larue, Daniel Defense, Colt, or anybody else out there. Excellent finish and every retro rifle I built using their lowers had zero play between the lower and upper. I have 6 retro rifles built on their lowers (601, early and late 603 M-16A1, early and late 604 USAF M-16 style and a 604 style dedicated .22 conversion) and any future retro rifles I build will use only a Nodal Spud lower for that correct look. No, no connection with them on my part in any way, just a VERY satisfied customer getting the word out about their lowers and other products as well.

 

[bannockburn]

This is my Colt SP1 Sporter with the round handguards installed. Still have the original triangular ones but find the round ones much more comfortable to use.



And this my version of the XM177E2 that I built some years ago. Really like the compact size and handling capabilities of this little carbine.

 

[IndianaBoy]

Anywho, it is good to see there are multiple options. I also didn't know original Colts could be had so reasonably. I figured they'd be way north of the figures mentioned early in the thread.

I would jump on that kit I linked you. Not to try to alarm you, and there are still lots of retro parts out there... But those kits at Sarco sold out FAST!

A few more came in after I bought mine and those sold out fast as well. There may be a bunch more of them sitting in a warehouse in SE Asia or those might be the last ones we will see. My upper was well used on the outside but the inside looked unfired as did my bolt and bolt carrier. The quality of those old Colt parts is impressive.

I also kind of screwed up in my prior post. If you send a new barrel and your upper parts to RetroArms Works to be drilled and headspaced, you need to send your upper, front sight base, barrel, barrel nut, delta ring assembly, and handguard end cap. You might as well send the flash hider too so he can torque it for you properly.

 

[d2wing]

Wow, great thread. I am a Nam vet. I have two AR's but miss the lightness and great handling of the issue AR. I am thinking of a retro build as well. I was there in 1969, so we had Forward assist. Thanks again for the great info.

 

[Joea132]

These older rifles and lowers are higher than normal in price right now due in large part to the Connecticut assault weapons ban. The ban excludes any rifle made or imported before September 13, 1994 and a lot of people have been buying them at much higher prices. In a LGS here in CT, it's not uncommon to see an $1800-2000 SP1 used preban.

 

[IndianaBoy]

Just noticed these are in stock at the moment.

A great buy in my opinion.

http://www.e-sarcoinc.com/colt-m16a1-g-i-parts-kit-excellent.aspx