Old timey gunbelt question.

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Warren

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So how is it that cowboys and other gun belt wearers of the old days kept said belt from sliding down their bodies?

There were no loops that it slid through and no over the shoulder strap to keep it up and some of these dudes were as skinny as a popsicle on a hot day, so what kept the belt up?

All that walking or bouncing around on horseback I'd expect that the belt would start sliding and many people upon taking another step would find the belt around their ankles.

So school me on this please.
 
Actually, Wyatt Earp did have his gunbelt slip down in the middle of a gunfight when he got off of his horse. He won, and survived the fight by the way.

During the 19th century, real westerners, including cowboys, lawmen and outlaws didn't wear the kind of belts you usually see in western movies. The belts tended to be narrower and made out of softer leather - and were not worn low with the holster tied down. Consequently, they stayed in place.
 
Trousers in those days were much higher waisted (not like modern jeans) and were often worn with suspenders (no belt loops).
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Yup. In fact, I seem to recall reading somewhere that "belt loops" weren't even invented until the 20th century.

The cowboy action crowd has led to a resurgence in the old styles. This picture is of a modern reproduction of typical 19th century pants:
CM831.jpg

Note how high the waist is. A gun belt would be worn just under the suspender buttons, but still above the point of the hips.
 
Hollywood vs Reality

The most common "Cowboy" rig you see in films is called a Buscadero Rig which has the dropped holster and a slanted appearence on the body. These were first designed in the 1920s, I believe and used in films.

More often than not, the true cowboy rig was just a leather belt hanging at the natural waist with a holster hanging on it. John Wayne wore more of a traditional style for the most part, a suede out money belt pattern with a single strap holster.
 
The most common "Cowboy" rig you see in films is called a Buscadero Rig which has the dropped holster and a slanted appearence on the body. These were first designed in the 1920s, I believe and used in films.
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Actually, the original drop-loop gunbelt (aka "Buscadero") was designed by Texas Ranger Capt. Frank Hamer in the 1890's after his right arm was disabled in a gunfight. His version was left-handed and included the now famous "FBI tilt" to make his left-handed draw easier. It was built in colaboration with Sam Myers of El Paso Saddlery. However, Hollywierd did pick up their use in the 1920's for their cool appearance, but added a steel liner in the body of the holster so the cylinder would turn in the holster so the famous "quickdraw" would roll on film.

More often than not, the true cowboy rig was just a leather belt hanging at the natural waist with a holster hanging on it. John Wayne wore more of a traditional style for the most part, a suede out money belt pattern with a single strap holster.
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This part about the leather belt hanging at the wearer's natural waist with a holster on it is true. This is how my rigs are, however, I adopted the theory that the gun's grip should be halfway between the wearer's elbow and wrist.

John Wayne's rig, however, wasn't a suede-out money belt pattern. It was a canvas belt the Army adopted because they don't cause that green corrossion on the brass cartridges.
 
Another thing I just remembered... Ya'll know, everybody associates those two types of gun rigs with cowboys and such, but in Montana, Idaho, and a couple of other states where they wore bigger or longer coats, shoulder holsters were worn a lot more commonly than most folks think. In fact, I read one account of the evolution of gunleather that said shoulder holsters weren't the invention of 1920's gangsters, but rather they were the invention of 1890's Montana saddlemakers.
 
The assumption today is that every cowboy carried a SA Colt. But that gun cost a month's pay for the average cowboy or two weeks pay for an average working man. Many of those who went armed (and they were a minority once an area was settled) carried smaller guns (of the type we now scorn) in their pockets.

Jim
 
Earlier today, my Mom and I got to discussing Dennis Weaver's death and his role as Chester Goode on "Gunsmoke" and I started recalling all the inaccuracies between "Gunsmoke" and "Bonanza"... I recalled the mention in the other thread called "what guns for modern cowboy" that most real working cowboys didn't have much money and were more likely to be carrying cap&ball revolvers or conversions considering the lower cost compared to a Colt's SAA. I've at least seen "Bonanza" get this one right by including cap&ball or transition period guns among the props on several occassions. Now, this part about smaller handguns reminded me of an auction I ran across on gunbroker.com for an 1851 Navy Sheriff's Model (short barrel, but still had the rammer). If the price had been under $100, I'd have probably bid, but they had a reserve of $160 on "new old stock", but I digress... I'm also reminded of reading a book called "Pills, Plows, and Petticoats" which dealt with the old Southern country store... they discussed the huge market for small cheap handguns during that time period between 1865 and the 1930's. Many of those guns were Iver Johnson "Owlhead" or H&R "Bulldog" IIRC pre-dating the current Charter Arms "Bulldog". I say IIRC... it's been ten years since I read the book. Anyway, I just don't recall reading about such a large number of sales of Colt and S&W revolvers in the South at the time and I suspect the same is probably true to some degree of the midwestern and southwestern farming and ranching communities.
 
So with the belts they just relied on tightness and friction to keep them up?
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Yeah, pretty much. IMO though, it don't hafta be too tight though as the weight of the gun, plus a mite more ammo weight to the gun's side, being there helps some too... pulls on the opposite side of the belt to create the friction or rather pressure.

Now, I have seen some rigs 4" wide with two rows of 36rds each and two sixguns... and IIRC that was a money belt too... it's a wonder they could walk with all that much less wear it without it falling down.

One thing everybody has to remember is that the visions of the West we've been presented over the last 100yrs or so is that of the imaginary West. It's a lot different to the way it really was.
 
Slim People

If you look at old pics you'll rarely see large people with big belly's like many of us have become in the last 50-75 years. The natural waist was up near the belly button and thats where the belt went. Folks were less affluent, ate plain simple food, worked hard, and stayed skinny.
 
My great-grandfather was an old-time, hardcore cowboy. Married a Blackfoot indian woman in the Dakotas and settled down with her and started a family on a ranch near Abilene, Texas. When I was a kid I naturally bugged him constantly to tell me stories about the "cowboy days".

One of the main things I remember him talking about was that most of the "pistol packin' you see in them Hollywood pictures" just didn't happen. According to him, pretty much everyone carried a rifle, usually a lever action, and usually in a scabbard on their saddle. He always told me that anything a pistol would do, a rifle would do better, so in an environment where the average person would only be able to afford one gun, the rifle would naturally be the first choice.

We only have two pictures of him and his wife when they were young, and in both pictures he and his wife are holding Winchester lever-action rifles, and are they're both wearing what we'd call Pancho Villa-style ammo belts over one shoulder.
 
So how is it that cowboys and other gun belt wearers of the old days kept said belt from sliding down their bodies?
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I always just figured the real men in those days had extra big man parts up front. That's what held their belts up.
 
So with the belts they just relied on tightness and friction to keep them up?
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Don't you expect your belt to hold your pants up? Or do you depend on your pants (belt loops) to hold up your belt ....? :rolleyes:

Any kind of belt - pants belt, gun belt, carpenters' tool belt, backpack hip belt - will stay up as long as it is worn above the widest part of your hipbones and adjusted smaller than that dimension.


Also ... every western museum that I've ever been in seems to have tons of nickel plated small revolvers;) and only an occasional Colt. I'm not sure how they were carried, but I'm guessing that many were just carried in coat or vest pockets, etc. Some chaps had thigh pockets, too.
 
I believe it was Pale Rider that showed how most carried their guns. High on the hip, not low slung. You also get to the point where you do not notice the weight as much, and do not have it "flopping around" when you walk. Like most LEO's today. Although most cops in the beginning, ( Grandpa included) carried their revolvers in their pockets, no holsters.

It was a little more realistic in terms of carry, than a lot of Hollyweird westerns.
 
Yes, they wore their guns much higher. Up high on the side. This protected the weapon from weather(as it was up under the coat) and from dropping out of the holster while seated(or while actually in sitting motion).
The belts were normally not very wide, just worn snug. The huge wide(3inch+) belts of the movies were not very prevelant. Yes, some where there. There are a number of pictures of outlaws and lawmen wearing such belts.
The gamblers, townfolk, none lawmen types usually carried smaller weapons than the classic Colt or Remington single actions.
The "Buscadero" rig of modern film is a post 1900 design. Its useless when sitting in a chair or saddling up on a horse. The holster is turned almost upside down and the gun will fall out. A hammer thong is used to prevent this but its scant insurance.
One of the more widespread holsters in the west was the classic Army flap holster. It was cheap. It was available. Often the top flap was cut off.
 
Don't you expect your belt to hold your pants up? Or do you depend on your pants (belt loops) to hold up your belt ....?

Any kind of belt - pants belt, gun belt, carpenters' tool belt, backpack hip belt - will stay up as long as it is worn above the widest part of your hipbones and adjusted smaller than that dimension.
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Sure but the loops keep everything from sliding around and in position.

Also, over time would not the leather stretch out and if the person was not paying attention he could have the belt fall off?
 
Sure but the loops keep everything from sliding around and in position.

Also, over time would not the leather stretch out and if the person was not paying attention he could have the belt fall off?
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It's all in what you're used to ... these days most of us are used to jeans or other modern trousers with belt loops. Back then they would have likely been as uncomfortable with belt loops and you or I would be without them.

Also, folks back then didn't change their clothes for different activities during the day, either. They may have even slept in their clothes. It would actually have be kind of handy to come inside the cabin or cow camp, and unbuckle your belt with the assorted pistol/knife/whatever and take it off without unthreading the belt from your pants. ;)

Sure the leather might stretch, but you would notice that when you put in on everyday. More likely your waist would shrink when grub was short - just punch another hole and keep going.

One of the more widespread holsters in the west was the classic Army flap holster.
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Yeah, I was going to mention that - along with a surplus of cap and ball revolvers. Heck, my daily carry gun was made about 30 years ago;)

To my knowledge, those army flap holster were all "left handed" intended to be worn (high) on the right hip with the butt forward. The gun was drawn with a twisting motion and cocked at the same time - not "safe" by modern standards because you would be covering your own body with the muzzle.

I would guess that cross draw was a lot more popular back then, as the movie "quick draw" would be rarely if ever necessary. Most likely use of a handgun might have been to put down an injured animal anyway.
 
I would guess that cross draw was a lot more popular back then, as the movie "quick draw" would be rarely if ever necessary. Most likely use of a handgun might have been to put down an injured animal anyway.
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From what I understand, there were two terms in actual western firearms handling vernacular... "quick" and "sudden" meaning somebody was fast or faster do defend themselves if they felt they were threatened. But it's a general concensus among historians that the movie "quick draw" wasn't used. According to Louis L'Amour's non-fictional writing from his research and Sheriff Jim Wilson's info in his "Gunsmoke" collumn, the gunfight between Luke Short and Longhaired Jim Courtwright in Fort Worth Texas was a very well known affair where the guns were drawn from pants pockets. While Courtwright's Peacemaker was in a holster- probably a type typical of the period- Short's gun was a Colt DA 1877 IIRC drawn from his pocket. This is said to have caused a glut of 1877 and 1878 Colt revolvers in the Dallas-Ft. Worth area as gun shops and hardware stores were sold out and backordering for a long time. Another thing Mr. L'Amour touched on in a Sackett novel was that one reason cowboys carried a revolver was so in the event they were thrown from their horse and dragged by their foot caught in a stirrup, they could theoretically shoot the horse to keep from being dragged to death. I don't readily recall reading where this actually happened.
 
Another thing Mr. L'Amour touched on in a Sackett novel was that one reason cowboys carried a revolver was so in the event they were thrown from their horse and dragged by their foot caught in a stirrup, they could theoretically shoot the horse to keep from being dragged to death. I don't readily recall reading where this actually happened.
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Can you imagine what a strategy and tactics board would look like if it was mainly peopled by old west types?
 
Another thing Mr. L'Amour touched on in a Sackett novel was that one reason cowboys carried a revolver was so in the event they were thrown from their horse and dragged by their foot caught in a stirrup, they could theoretically shoot the horse to keep from being dragged to death. I don't readily recall reading where this actually happened.
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I just looked back at this statement and I need to correct the part where I said "I don't readily recall reading where this actually happened". Actually I do recall one incident... it happened to Elmer Keith once. I'll have to go back through "Sixguns" and "Hell, I Was There" to see exactly what the deal was, but IIRC, it had to do with a rank kind of bronk he was riding and wound up under the horse. He was packin' a Colt's SAA .45Colt at that time.

Can you imagine what a strategy and tactics board would look like if it was mainly peopled by old west types?
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Yeah. We'd really get Gunkid's goat with raging debates over which rifle and caliber's more tacticool... 1860 Henry in .44 Henry Rimfire vs. 1873 Winchester in .44-40... Which is the better sniper platform... 1874 Sharps in .45-110 vs. Remington's Rolling Block in .45-70gov't... Which is the better deer rifle... Winchester '73 in .44-40 vs. '94 in .30-30... Instead of Glock vs. 1911A1, it'd be a constant barrage of Colt's SAA vs. S&W Schofield. Who makes the best Bowie knife?

So you're ridin' along with an old Army ambulance full of guns and ammo and the Indians/rustlers/jayhawkers/whoever attack you from nowhere... do you run, or do you get down in a buffalo wallow and have some fun with your wagonload of armament at their expense?

I'm likin' this already...:D :D :D
 
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