Oldest Firearm I own. Queen Anne Turn Off Pistol

[Johnm1]

A fit check of a 10-24 coil shows that not only will the coil not 'screw in without drilling' but a relatively large amount of material would have to be drilled out for the coil to be installed. This would be the absolute last option. I'm going to have to get a cast or impression of the inside thread to see what I actually have. Whitworth/British threads are available and appear to be used today. I doubt these would be Whitworth threads though. I haven't done detailed research on the Whitworth thread but the Whitworth threads were concieved in 1841. Over 100 years after this pistol was made.

Big Bore's advice is still sound even if this is a thread standard unique to this gun builder and lost to time. In order to maintain the material of the part I need to try to find/make a screw/thread that fits the thread I have. Either that or build up the screw I have and thread to the appropriate pitch.

I have to have an accurate impression of the existing inside thread to do that. First attempt will be with wood.

 

[Johnm1]

Cerro Safe I have. I just figured it would adhere to the threads. Of course it can be melted out.

Thanks.

Big Bore said

Cerrosafe. Use a small flat screwdriver, and cast around it, the casting will come right out.

 

[Johnm1]

Cerrosafe. Use a small flat screwdriver, and cast around it, the casting will come right out.

I haven't gotten the hang of such a small casting. The screw driver strips out of the Cerro Safe even when I trim the excess off. I am trying after it is cooled, about 15 minutes, but before it increases in size. That happens in about an hour. Does anyone think that a release agent would work? Oil, wax or the like? I thought anything I put in would burn off. But maybe not.

 

[44 Dave]

Tix solder has a release agent.

 

[Big Bore 44]

Stick the driver through the part, then cast. Maybe try a Torx bit. Yeah oil will work as a release agent, Cerrosafe is a very low melting point alloy.

 

[Johnm1]

Stick the driver through the part, then cast. Maybe try a Torx bit. Yeah oil will work as a release agent, Cerrosafe is a very low melting point alloy.

I'll try some oil. I actually tried the torx bit but not all the way through.

 

[Johnm1]

I'm just a sucker. Fortunately this time the part doesn't fit so I'm not out $175. A bit much for what it is but being an original I probably would have bought it if it fit this pistol. It does help me with ideas to design my own though. Maybe the Dixie model I bought will be close enough.

 

[Big Bore 44]

Just looking in my old lathe manual, there is a 13/64 X 24tpi listed. Major dia.(o.d.) is listed as .2031" Minor dia (inside of cock) should be around .1490" (wear may cause slightly bigger measurement.)

 

[Johnm1]

Just looking in my old lathe manual, there is a 13/64 X 24tpi listed. Major dia.(o.d.) is listed as .2031" Minor dia (inside of cock) should be around .1490" (wear may cause slightly bigger measurement.)

That might very well be what I need. #10 and 3/16 are both too small and 7/32 is too big. I'm stumbling trying to get a good impression of the threads. I've failed on every attempt with the cerro safe. I thought a 7/32 tube might collapse enough to take an impression but it doesn't work.

There are several issues with the cerro safe. The screw is about 3/16" so that doesn't leave much space for a srew driver tip. Also excess on the bottom of the threaded hole is difficult to remove without damaging the finish. Im going to cut a small length of 10-24 screw that does loosely thread so it will fill the bottom of the threaded hole. I am using oil as a release agent.

There are 3 threads on the very top of the screw that are never used and have no damage. I can successfully measure them to confirm 24 threads per inch. But i cannot measure the major and minor diameters with any degree of confidence.

 

[PWC]

I love to tinker also, but it appears, at least to me, that it is time for some professional help. Let the pro fix the "hammer and screw" problem. This piece should not require the gun to repair as long as the hammer hole is not changed from square or round.

I still think, if you can find some generic "hammer" that you can modiy to fit, that will allow you to shoot is the best bet.

 

[Johnm1]

I loveto tinker also, but ot appears, at least toe, that it is time for some professional help. Let the pro fix the "hammer and screw" problem. Thst piece should not require the gun to repair as long as the hammer hole is not changed from square or round.

I still think, if you can find some generic "hammer" that you can modiy to fit, that will allow you to shoot is the best bet.

I was going to bring it to my local smith today but got sick. Haven't had a cold like this in decades. There are side hammers available but I haven't been able to find a hammer for a center hammer like this one. Its also tiny compared to even other pistol hammers.

 

[Big Bore 44]

Just measure the OD of those good threads, if ~0.203 then it's 13/64X24. If you would like kick me a PM and maybe I can repair the entire cock, and make a new jaw screw.

 

[Johnm1]

Life sucks when you have to work. Been real busy but managed to spend some time today on the top jaw screw. I just cannot get an impression of the inner threads. They are for sure 24 TPI and almost have to be 13/64ths. I have modern replacement screws in both 10-24 and 12-24. I was able to wrap one of the 10-24 screws in teflon tape and get a good grip on the flint. I also changed to lead sheet instead of leather to hold the flint. That works really well. It is now functional.



I have given up on casting an impression of the threads. I'm going to try to acquire or make a 13/64" aluminum rod so I can define the thread I need. In order to use the original screw I'll have to have it built up and re-threaded. Depending on what I find with the impression it could be either a custom thread or I may have to re-thread to 13/64-24.

I feel certain that the inner threads come to a point. I think most modern threads 'clip' the point off of the thread tip. I need more information before I do anything to the original paart(s). At least for now I can make it go bang without losing the flint on every shot.

 

[Johnm1]

Related side project. The barrel key arrived from Dixie. A bit small. Outside diameter is 0.912" and the barrel measures 0.698". If I drill it out I'll be left with a ring of steel 0.107- for my wrench. Think that will be stout enough?

If significant force is required I can always use my behemoth hand made tool I used to loosen the barrel and just use this one for normal on/off duty. Reality is the barrel can be twisted off by hand. Really more of an accessory then a necessary tool.

 

[Johnm1]

It was a good day at the range. It could have been better. Here in Arizona and I suspect in a lot of places all of the national forests are closed for recreation due to the fire danger. I was forced to use the formal range. Unfortunately the shortest distance you can place a Target at that range is 11 yards. The best I can tell that is about 10 yards farther then the gun was intended to shoot. Besides that, the gun functioned flawlessly. It took ten shots to hit the target at 11 yards. Consider that the gun has no sights and there is no place to register your point of aim except the top of the hammer in the front of the barrel. That cants the gun way way high. From there it's hit or miss as to where you are actually aiming. I tried to look down the side of the barrel but that for some reason didn't work. I had to enlist help from a couple of other Shooters to help me figure out where the gun was actually hitting. I managed to spray some additional shots over the target board. But needless to say this isn't a target pistol. It was meant for a contact or close to contact distance.



I managed to put around 25 rounds down range today. And yes, that is the only true hit out of the 25 shot taken.

 

[cowboydave]

I have been following your work, glad you got it working.

 

[Johnm1]

I have been following your work, glad you got it working.

In reality it was functional the day I bought it. Even with the barrel stuck and the top jaw screw stripped. I could have patched a 54 caliber ball and used it as a muzzle loader. I just chose not to. The previous owner used leather to tighten the top jaw screw and it worked. One time though. Each time we fired it with the leather the flint would fall out. I just wanted to fire it multiple times as it was designed. I'm not finished trying to repair the screw. But for now it functions as intended.

There are 2 guys at the range that were just tickled to shoot it today. They helped me get it on target.

 

[Johnm1]

I must admit, pulling the trigger on a 200 year old pistol for the first time was 'exhilarating'

This is literally how I fired it the first time. I could only find one pair of glasses and gave them to my oldest child so they could take the video.

 

[Lyle]

I’m glad that you were able to go shooting. I’m done for the summer. I can’t deal with this heat, it’s only 103. I also don’t want to start a wild fire. We have more than enough already.

 

[Johnm1]

I’m glad that you were able to go shooting. I’m done for the summer. I can’t deal with this heat, it’s only 103. I also don’t want to start a wild fire. We have more than enough already.

There is literally no place to shoot in Arizona right now other than the formal ranges. All public lands are closed to recreation. As I understand it that includes hunting.

 

[Johnm1]

On my next outing with this pistol, which should be this weekend, I'm going to try loading the flash-pan with the 3F powder that I use for the main charge. I suspect it will work just fine. I am really amazed at the reliability of the Flintlock ignition system. Of course, I am not using it in wet weather. I suspect reliability will go downhill very quickly when it's raining.

Although I own several black powder firearms I am not an expert on thier use. The internet helps in this regard. I approach loading any of my black powder firearms with the same attitude as my reloading efforts. It just helps me not make mistakes. Even so I have dry loaded my 1861 Springfield. I am very meticulous and have a specific routine for each black powder Firearm I load. In the case of this pistol it includes several steps of cleaning in between rounds. It just makes the removal and installation of the barrel a bit easier when I clean the threads. I always keep the containers of black powder off of the shooting bench while I am shooting. I don't want a large Bang. I suspect most black powder Shooters do the same. While loading this pistol this weekend my routine included loading the chamber with 3f and putting the container back on the ground behind the Bench. Then picking up the priming powder off of the ground and loading the flash pan with 4f powder. In one instance I was distracted and the 4f powder was on the bench but I could not specifically remember if I had loaded the chamber with 3f. So I fired off a round without a projectile just to remove what was in the chamber because I couldn't be sure that it was 3F powder.

I think, but don't know, that the 4F would probably work. I suspect it would be more energetic. But, this pistol does not need to be energetic. Although it would serve its intended purpose today as well as when it was built I have no need to Hotrod this pistol.

 

[Johnm1]

Well I didn't get to the range last weekend. I'll make it tomorrow though. I did make it to my gunsmith though to discuss the options available to restore the original screw back to service. Options include:

- build up the original screw and, somehow re-thread to match what is in the bottom jaw - heat on screw. With the unknown iron he thought it just as likely it wouldn't handle the welding operation either arc or gas welding.
- fill the bottom jaw, drill and tap to a small modern thread and use one of the replacement jaw screws - still heat now to the hammer. Similar concerns.
- drill/tap to #12-24 - this makes the hole in the bottom jaw bigger. Maybe by 1/64"
- modify a larger replacement screw to match the thread in the bottom jaw - possible. Might be difficult to match the unknown threas

In the end we agreed to do nothing. A risk/reward decision. I'll keep the original jaw screw and use the #10-24 replacement screw with teflon tape to allow it to hold the flint in place.

Here is a picture of the existing hole in the bottom jaw. Making it larger, even 1/64", could weaken the structure of the hammer. Not likely but it's 222 years old.





Im ok with the decision and keeping with the 'Do No Harm' mantra.

 

[JN01]

You might try this guy: Antique Gun Restoration - JACK BROOKS (jsbrookslongrifles.com)

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

The do no harm mantra is a good thing, your gunsmith I think is not used to dealing with stuff like your pistol. Most stuff I've come across was made of a malleable iron that was easy to thread or weld. Opening up the hole in the cock 1/64 is not gonna comprise the strength, I think I would stabilize the part by heating it and letting it cool down first. I have done this a few times with a part I was not sure of, and who knows, maybe it kept it from breaking.

 

[Johnm1]

The do no harm mantra is a good thing, your gunsmith I think is not used to dealing with stuff like your pistol. Most stuff I've come across was made of a malleable iron that was easy to thread or weld. Opening up the hole in the cock 1/64 is not gonna comprise the strength, I think I would stabilize the part by heating it and letting it cool down first. I have done this a few times with a part I was not sure of, and who knows, maybe it kept it from breaking.

I would agree this isn't really up his alley. But I appreciate his understanding of the 'Do no harm' philosophy. I will follow up on @JN01 's reference though.

I probably put 40 rounds through it today. I'm still stuck shooting at a range the has a minimum target distance of 11 yards. I did manage to put a 4 shot group on the target board that was an inch or so bigger than my outstretched fingers. 10-11" or so.

3F as priming powder worked just fine. I figured it would. Now to figure out what I'm going to do with the remaining 1 lb. of 4F.