Omaha Doctor calls for assault weapons ban

[rluening]

Malpractice vs. Firearms deaths

I just checked this out and posted a comment on wowt.com. The mods there don't care for a lot of my comments, so it may or may not make it to the public.

In 2000, 2001, and 2002 malpractice deaths ran about 195,000 per year. In those same years _all_ firearms related deaths (according to the CDC) were between 29,600 and 30,500 per year.

Gotta run to a meeting. I should be able cite sources later today if needed.


/rl

 

[mbt2001]

Still, the senator has drawn up two proposed bills on gun control he'll introduce in the next legislative session. "Ensure that firearms are safely stored in the home, that the weapons that are stolen from the home are reported to police officers." Both were issues in the mall shootings.

Law 1 is cannot be enforced... So while a good suggestion, just means that victims will become criminals at a faster rate.

Law 2 same as above

How would either of these stopped the mall shooter?

Why don't we pass a law that makes it illegal to go into the mall with an AK??

WHO DO THEY THINK ENFORCES THE LAW? IS ZEUS AND HIS LIGHTENING BOLT ON THE CITY PAYROLL? These laws would only make sense if the word omnipresent is thrown in somewhere.

 

[RNB65]

I love some of the low road, knee-jerk responses in this thread. The man is a trauma surgeon, which means he's more intelligent than probably 99% of THR members. You may not agree with his politics, but don't question his intelligence.

I disagree with Robert Hairless' assertion that this is a professional boundary violation. A boundary violation occurs within the context of a specific doctor-patient relationship when the physician violates that relationship by inserting his own personal needs and desires into the relationship. Publically declaring assault rifles to be a public health issue and supporting a ban is not a boundary violation as long as it occurs outside the context of a doctor-patient relationship.

Let there be no doubt that I disagree with his opinons. But using insults and flawed arguments is not the proper way to debate and dispute those opinions.
-

 

[Owens]

Granted the Dr. is verey intelligent. In Surgery. Obviously knows little about firearms. On that plane, I venture to say that most THR members are more intelligent than him.

The Dr's. reaction is what I would call 'knee-jerk'. It's the same old, won't hold water argument that we've heard time and time again.

 

[Coronach]

The AMA for instance was instrumental in the withdrawal of the Black Talon from market; that's a particularly nasty round that puts the doctor at risk as well as the patient. I could totally understand that move...

Is this a misread attempt at sarcasm, or do you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about?

Mike

 

[Coronach]

I love some of the low road, knee-jerk responses in this thread. The man is a trauma surgeon, which means he's more intelligent than probably 99% of THR members. You may not agree with his politics, but don't question his intelligence.

The problem is that, for any given contentious social issue, you have blisteringly intelligent people falling on both sides of it. Intelligence does not equate to being correct. He might not be an idiot, but he is clearly ignorant. The doctor is doubtless a very skilled surgeon, but he clearly 1. does not understand firearms or firearms issues and 2. does not believe that individual freedom trumps "collective safety".

Mike

PS Yes, the main reason that "collective safety" is trumped is that it is a deadly myth, but some people refuse to believe that.

 

[siglite]

when will these people realize that gun restriction laws do absolutely nothing. Nothing at all.

They will not, and this is touched upon here:

The man is a trauma surgeon, which means he's more intelligent than probably 99% of THR members. You may not agree with his politics, but don't question his intelligence.

Well... they had me in the special egghead classes at school too. According to the state, at the time, I fit under the same intellectual qualification as you assert the good doctor does. And using my special egghead powers of deduction, if we rule out ignorance, as you seem to wish, then that leaves us with one other explanation for the man's position and asinine assertions.

Malice.

 

[MakAttak]

I love some of the low road, knee-jerk responses in this thread. The man is a trauma surgeon, which means he's more intelligent than probably 99% of THR members. You may not agree with his politics, but don't question his intelligence.

I disagree with Robert Hairless' assertion that this is a professional boundary violation. A boundary violation occurs within the context of a specific doctor-patient relationship when the physician violates that relationship by inserting his own personal needs and desires into the relationship. Publically declaring assault rifles to be a public health issue and supporting a ban is not a boundary violation as long as it occurs outside the context of a doctor-patient relationship.

Let there be no doubt that I disagree with his opinons. But using insults and flawed arguments is not the proper way to debate and dispute those opinions.
-

Well, I have no doubt that I am at least as intelligent as the good doctor.

I will not question his mental capacity, but apparently he is not smart enough to know when he does not know.

Amazing how many people fall into this category. (It's an epidemic in this country)

 

[MD_Willington]

IIRC isn't 7.62*39 slower than a most hunting rounds...

How is an AK clone more dangerous than a BAR or Remington Semi-auto, both the BAR and the Remington are chambered for more powerful rounds, that have a larger bullet selection.

In most cases it seems like the people shooting places up with a semi-auto cambered in 7.62*39 are just using plain old ball ammo...

 

[rluening]

Oddly enough....

... I submitted a comment to wowt.com citing my sources for the statistics that show medical malpractice killed 6 times as many people as firearms in the years 2000 - 2002, but the moderators didn't post it. Several anti-gun comments have been posted since then, though.

I'm not surprised. Some people just don't want to face hard evidence when it conflicts with their beliefs.

I tried.

/rl

 

[Liko81]

From what I remember, the Black Talon was simply a black moly or teflon coated JHP

Is this a misread attempt at sarcasm, or do you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about?

The Black Talon is not simply a Teflon-coated TMJ; though that's part of why it's a very effective round, there's more to it.

From FirearmsTactical.com:

When Ranger Talon expands, its copper jacket peels back to form six sharp claws. These claws protrude outward just slightly beyond the smooth outer edges of the mushroom-shaped lead core shoulder.

Upon impact with flesh Ranger Talon performs identical to conventional hollowpoint bullets. However, as it penetrates and slows it does not suffer a decrease in effective bullet diameter. This is because tissue that stretches and flows around the smooth shoulder of the mushroom-shaped lead core comes into contact with the sharp copper jacket claws and is lacerated.

A Black Talon is so named because when it hits, it expands into a claw-like arrangement of "talons", each of which are razor-sharp. That's half the purpose of the Teflon; to cover what will become the edges of the talons until the bullet penetrates, at which time the jacket sloughs off and the talons are exposed. The other half is to increase penetration just that tiny bit more by decreasing barrel friction (increasing muzzle velocity) and easing initial penetration.

I have seen this round fired and retrieved from ballistic gel, and even if the bullet does not stay in one piece (as it is designed to do) the fragments are no less sharp. A doctor in the emergency room poking around in the wound is quickly going to find a deep cut in his finger if he drags it against one of the edges, as surely as if he'd sliced himself with a scalpel. He's now become a blood brother with his patient, putting both at risk for infection from the other, not to mention an injury such as that immediately removes that doctor from treating the patient, a deep cut can make a doctor unable to perform his duties for days or even weeks until the cut heals, and if severe enough the damage could be permanent and end a doctor's career. No other bullet on the market poses quite that level of danger not only to patient but to medic.

Before you say that no doctor would be stupid enough to poke a finger around in a bullet hole, I remind you that many procedures normally undertaken on gun shot wounds such as staunching bleeding organs/blood vessels, inserting a chest tube, or just simply removing the bullet when you don't know that it is a Black Talon would all be done with at least some poking around with bare hands; it's faster, more precise and less damaging to remaining tissue than using tools. And if the ER doctors don't poke around, the surgeons will; they don't bother with tools for simply moving or rotating organs for a better view. A leftover fragment that the ER missed (that's not their job; the ER docs makes sure the patient will survive long enough for surgeons to fix the damage) poses just as much risk if contacted as the rest of the bullet would.

Removal of the bullet requires forceps or a clamp, which requires the doctor to be able to see the bullet to avoid pressing it further in while probing (made difficult by the average amount of blood present in a bullet wound and the depth of penetration due to the Teflon), and extraction of the bullet also causes more damage to the patient on its way out. The Black Talon is, in short, a very nasty slug, and the controversy, not the least of which came from the AMA, prodded Winchester to withdraw it from the market. The Black Talon itself is no longer made but you can find it, and similar ammos are made that avoid the "Black" connotation.

Next time you try to accuse me of not knowing what I'm talking about, I advise you to know what you're talking about yourself. The Black Talon recieved a lot of negative media attention as causing an "unsurviveable wound" or being a "golden bullet" that gave the doctors no chance to save a victim; in criminal hands such a bullet would be a clear danger to the public. This is not that bullet and I never said it was; its incremental effects on a wound over an ordinary JHP are minor and deal with turning temporary cavity into permanent cavity. However, that does NOT mitigate the damage the bullet DOES do and the danger the bullet poses to those trying to remove it without knowing what it was.

 

[keeleon]

... I submitted a comment to wowt.com citing my sources for the statistics that show medical malpractice killed 6 times as many people as firearms in the years 2000 - 2002, but the moderators didn't post it. Several anti-gun comments have been posted since then, though.

I'm not surprised. Some people just don't want to face hard evidence when it conflicts with their beliefs.

I tried.

/rl

Please cite your sources I'd love to have this info.

 

[Justin]

I love some of the low road, knee-jerk responses in this thread. The man is a trauma surgeon, which means he's more intelligent than probably 99% of THR members.

Which makes it all the more distressing that the good doctor is spouting utter nonsense. He really ought to know better.

 

[Gillster]

I love some of the low road, knee-jerk responses in this thread. The man is a trauma surgeon, which means he's more intelligent than probably 99% of THR members. You may not agree with his politics, but don't question his intelligence.

Nope, just means he's got more formal education. In 20 years in hospitals I've met brilliant doctors and not so brilliant doctors and docs who could recite every lab value range they ever learned but couldn't find their car in the parking lot.

 

[HGUNHNTR]

A Big Thank You to everyone who has taken the time to post comments thus far. I know THR is full of very knowledgeable people, capable of constructing some enlightening comments. Thanks Again.

 

[bluestarlizzard]

gillster, thank you for bringing that up. a higher degree does not nessasarly make a person more intellegent. also i have meet people who are pure geniuses in there feild, but couldn't talk intelligently about ANYTHING else.

 

[Cosmoline]

If I was Fred Wilson and saw my MD using my own injuries to further his political views and "forgive" the shooter, I'd sue the POS six ways from Sunday. A doctor has no right to discuss such matters in public. It's possible he had Wilson's approval, but if not he's way over the line. Never trust a doctor.

The man is a trauma surgeon, which means he's more intelligent than probably 99% of THR members. You may not agree with his politics, but don't question his intelligence.

This is hilarious. I've deposed dozens of trauma surgeons. While I respect their craft, it does not require any more than average intelligence. Nor does above average intelligence preclude an individual from being amazingly stupid.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

I love some of the low road, knee-jerk responses in this thread. The man is a trauma surgeon, which means he's more intelligent than probably 99% of THR members. You may not agree with his politics, but don't question his intelligence.

_____________________________________________________________

These are very high velocity weapons that are only meant to destroy tissue and kill people."

Nebraska Sen. Brad Ashford of Omaha couldn't agree more. "I agree with the doctor, there is no good reason to have assault weapons for protection, for hunting."

If he is so intelligent why does he show such ignorance by making statement like the ones above. You telling me that we don't use high velocity weapons to kill deer? Or do the high velocity weapons that we use on deer not destory tissue? Or are only high velocity ammo use in assault weapons?

Or is it because since he is a trauma surgeon it puts him in a special class? I know that because of his position the ignorant and uninformed will pay him more attention then the average citizen such as you and I.

He may be intelligent but sure doesn't have the common sense God gave a piss ant!

 

[Coronach]

A Black Talon is so named because when it hits, it expands into a claw-like arrangement of "talons", each of which are razor-sharp...

I deleted the rest of the original post, but I'm responding to it, generally.

The ballyhooed Black Talon round does nothing that your standard modern defensive HP does not do. The breathless hyperbole of FirearmsTactical aside, I have seen many a non-Black Talon round pulled from gel or people with edges sharp enough to slice flesh. The hysteria surrounding the round has less to do with its performance and more to do with media ignorance; it is the original "cop-killer" bullet.

Allegedly, the Ranger SXT round, which replaced the Black Talon, is basically the same round with a different colored jacket and the nickname "Same eXact Thing", but that could very well be internet legend. One way or the other, there is nothing more magical, menacing, or dangerous about the BT round than any other well-designed modern hollow point.

Mike

 

[Deanimator]

I love some of the low road, knee-jerk responses in this thread. The man is a trauma surgeon, which means he's more intelligent than probably 99% of THR members. You may not agree with his politics, but don't question his intelligence.

I have every right in the world to question his intelligence, do now, and will continue to do so.

He's the same kind of arrogant ponce as William Shockley or Noam Chomsky. In their overweaning pride and arrogance the three of them presumed that their apparent expertise in one subject automatically translates into expertise in another unrelated field.

Shockley believed that his knowledge of electronics made him equally expert in genetics and racial theory. In fact, he was nothing more than a racist quack.

Chomsky thinks that his work in linguistics qualifies him as some kind of genius in international relations, when in fact his facile "analyses" ought to embarass a 10th grader who uttered them.

And now this individual with FAR lesser IRRELEVANT qualifications than the aforementioned poseurs comes to try the bait and switch with his medical training exchanged in a laughably incompetent sleight of hand for the sort of "expertise" on firearms that a slack jawed yokel might acquire through a steady diet of "The A Team", John Woo films, and playing too much "Doom". He is not only collossally ignorant, he is so astonishingly arrogant, the massive, overwhelming condition of his own ignorance does not in any way intrude upon his consciousness. It's like a man sitting upon the rotting carcass of a blue whale, enthralled by the delicate aroma of an orchid.

Oh no, my friend. I not only will impugn his intelligence, simple decency DEMANDS it.

 

[JohnL2]

In aviation, you get into trouble because of a series of bad decisions or ignoring things that shouldn't be ignored until they compound and eventually kill you.
That is how I view the Nebraska massacre.
It is so easy to blame the weapon. It was Robert's fault. He made his decision. Yes, he was troubled. But Robert made his decision.

 

[Liko81]

I have every right in the world to question his intelligence, do now, and will continue to do so.

Probably, but it's not his intelligence you should question, but his wisdom. Intelligence is book smarts; knowing that you know stuff. Wisdom is world-smarts, which includes knowing that you DON'T know stuff.

And why would a very in-depth personal knowledge of what a bullet does to a human target, which one would think he'd have treating a victim of the Omaha shooting, be irrelevant to the topic of firearms? How does this doctor somehow not have the qualification to say that the bullet and weapon used by the shooter was more powerful, damaging and deadly than another weapon would have been? In fact, how can anyone not see that a 7.62 Soviet with an inch and a half of powder behind it is going to do significantly more damage than a 9mm or even a .45ACP handgun bullet, which are your average GSW culprits?

Now, given all that, the conclusions they draw are all wrong. I don't know if the good doctor has ever seen a hunting accident with a .308, or worse, an intentional shooting with a .308. A 7.62 Soviet round even though the diameter is the same is going to pale in comparison; it's designed for low-recoil rapid fire on human targets, while a .308 is a hunting round designed to put maximum power into each shot and put down far more resilient creatures than the human animal. The military-design weapon is NOT the problem; if it were, there are far bigger problems hanging over the mantles and in the closets of every big-game hunter in the country. The problem is the intention of the person shooting the weapon, and there is no law you can enact and enforce proactively to make being or becoming insane a criminal offense. We bar the crazies we can find, but there's a strict legal definition, and the shooters making the headlines are very aware of the difference between right and wrong. They are insane by any common sense definition of the word; picking up a gun and shooting as many people as you can definitely qualifies in most people's minds. But those crazies are sociopaths, the proactive detection of which is slightly beyond modern science.

 

[RoadkingLarry]

The man is a trauma surgeon, which means he's more intelligent than probably 99% of THR members.

That may be the most insulting thing I've read today.

While I can respect his skills as a trauma surgeon (if he's any good, I don't know)just because he had the financial wherewithal and the determination to make it through med school and internship and residency does not automatically infer some god like degree of intelligence. I've known two doctors that honestly did not know how to change a plain old household light bulb. They were good doctors but outside of their field of specialty (medicine) they were dumber than dirt. My dentist is a very good dentist and we have developed a bit of a personal relationship and I like and respect him but he can't even log into a Windows XP computer. Don't equate an advanced skill set and extended education with some higher level of intelligence and that us mere mortals are less bright (it may just be projection).

I said that to say this, far too many folks look to doctors and lawyers well, not so much lawyers, and other graduate level educated people as being somehow smarter and therefore better than the average Joe,(well it just isn’t so). Now when these “better than me” people tell us how the world works too many go along because they’ve always been lead to think these guys are so much smarter. Like as not they are just a bunch of paid shills for whatever special interest group they are railing about.

These people are out of there field and should not be deified.

 

[strat81]

My letter, please critique:

I’d like to begin by expressing my deepest sympathies for the victims of the Westroads Mall atrocity.

During a recent report on Channel 6 News, WOWT-TV, several uninformed, ignorant statements were made by Dr. Joseph Strothert of the Nebraska Medical Center. Dr. Strothert stated that, “The faster the bullet is going the more damage it does.” That statement, while not inherently false, disregards several aspects of terminal ballistics. The speed of a bullet is not the sole factor in determining how a bullet performs when it hits its target. Bullet weight, diameter, and construction are all just as important as velocity when determining the effects of a bullet on tissue.

Such blanket statements threaten and condemn several venerable hunting cartridges such as the .223 Remington, .243 Winchester, .270 Winchester, .308 Winchester, and .30-06 Springfield which expel bullets from their cases at speeds much higher than the 7.62x39mm cartridge used by the Von Maur killer. Conversely, many popular handgun cartridges such as the 9mm Luger, .45 ACP, .38 Special, and .357 Magnum propel bullets much more slowly than the killer’s. However, no one would contest the lethality of those rounds, or those fired from any gun. It is also unlikely that the events at Von Maur would have been less tragic if the killer was using a firearm chambered for a slower cartridge. Velocity is only part of the equation: a bowling ball can cause severe damage to human beings even at speeds relatively slow compared to bullets.

The point is that Dr. Strothert is unethically and immorally preying on the ignorance of the public. The general public is not expected to fully understand bullet velocity, caliber, and expansion but Dr. Strothert, through a lie by omission, has sought to confuse the public and place misinformation in their heads.

The good doctor then goes on to say, “These are very high velocity weapons that are only meant to destroy tissue and kill people." He apparently sees no difference in using a firearm to take a life in cold blood and using a firearm to protect human life from an aggressor. In the event of a home invasion, a rifle might be an appropriate choice to protect one’s family and Dr. Strothert is in no position to dictate how the public may or may not defend their loved ones from those that wish to cause harm to them. His above statement also shows complete disregard for athletes and competitors who participate in various forms of shooting sports such as silhouette and bullseye competition. Viewed another way, a firearm is just a tool. It may be used for protection, aggression, recreation, or putting food on the table. In that way, a rifle is no different than a hammer, a knife, or a baseball bat. While I am sure that Dr. Strothert is an intelligent man and capable physician, his area of expertise is medicine, not criminal justice or ballistics. He should stick to healing people rather than spreading half-truths.

In the same report, Omaha Senator Brad Ashford proceeded to call for more gun laws. Senator Ashford seems to be operating under the assumption that criminals obey laws. By definition, a criminal does not obey the law; that is what makes them a criminal. The Von Maur killer broke several laws on that fateful day: murder, attempted murder, assault, use of a deadly weapon to commit a felony, unlawful possession of a firearm by a felon, theft by unlawful taking, unlawful discharge of a firearm, and disturbing the peace. Would more laws have stopped him?

Sen. Ashford called for a ban on assault weapons at the federal level like the 10-year ban that expired in 2004. He said, "They're involved in many cases with that horrible, horrible, horrible destruction and death, from Columbine to Westroads. I don't know how much more we need to know." Sen. Ashford should know that the Columbine Massacre occurred in 1999, right in the middle of the ineffective ban. The killers in that attack also broke other federal laws including the National Firearms Act of 1934 and The Gun Control Act of 1968. The senator also said, “A bigger issue is, should we be selling assault weapons without background checks.” The Von Maur killer stole the weapon: Is the Senator proposing a background check on thieves before they steal firearms?

Sen. Ashford has apparently drawn up bills to "Ensure that firearms are safely stored in the home, that the weapons that are stolen from the home are reported to police officers." How does the Senator plan on enforcing these laws? Does he intend to violate the Fourth Amendment and have police engage in warrantless searches of homes looking for improperly stored weapons? Both laws would only come into play after the fact, after an attack has occurred. Perhaps the Senator should work on a bill making it illegal to shoot people in a crowded mall. Because more laws means we’re all safer, even if criminals break laws.

Let us digress into fantasy for just a moment. Imagine a world exactly the same as ours but with one difference: no guns. No one has a gun at all. There are still good guys and bad guys, but neither of them has a firearm. However, people will still die:

- May 18, 1927: Andrew Kehoe killed 45 people and injured 58, most of them children, after he bombed the local school in Bath, Michigan.
- 1933 – 1945: Approximately 11 million Jews and others deemed “undesirable” were killed by the Nazis during the Holocaust. Most died in gas chambers while others were subject to Nazi experiments or died from various diseases.
- April 6, 1976 – December 12, 1978: John Wayne Gacy confesses to 33 murders of young men and boys in the Chicago, IL area that he choked with a rope or board while he sexually assaulted them.
- July 7, 1986: Juan Gonzalez attacked passengers on the Staten Island Ferry in New York City with a machete. Two were killed and nine were injured.
- March 20, 1995: Members of Aum Shinrikyo killed twelve, severely injured fifty, and caused temporary vision problems for nearly a thousand people after they unleashed Sarin gas in the Tokyo, Japan subway.
- April 19, 1995: The Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, OK was destroyed by a bomb planted by Terry Nichols and Timothy McVeigh, resulting in 168 deaths and 800 injuries.
- July 27, 1996: Two people died and 111 were injured when a bomb was detonated in Centennial Olympic Park in Atlanta, GA by Eric Robert Rudolph.

This small sample serves to show that deplorable acts of violence can and do occur without firearms.

I do not proclaim to have all of the answers. Everyone is looking for someone to blame in the wake of this atrocity while it seems the person to blame was the perpetrator of this vicious act. The police, his family, the mayor, the state legislature, Congress, the mall, the store… none of them were at fault. You cannot prevent these things unless you want to trample the rights of all citizens. The Second Amendment was never about hunting and never will be. As Benjamin Franklin said, “Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

I'd like to send it to some of the bigger Nebraska newspapers such as The Omaha World-Herald, Lincoln Journal-Star, Grand Island Independent, and Kearney Hub. Let me know what you all think.

 

[Soybomb]

*snip*
Removal of the bullet requires forceps or a clamp, which requires the doctor to be able to see the bullet to avoid pressing it further in while probing (made difficult by the average amount of blood present in a bullet wound and the depth of penetration due to the Teflon), and extraction of the bullet also causes more damage to the patient on its way out.
*snip*
Next time you try to accuse me of not knowing what I'm talking about, I advise you to know what you're talking about yourself.

Speaking of that, black talons did not have a teflon coating, they had winchester's black oxide coating known as lubalox on them http://www.winchester.com/news/newsview.aspx?storyid=220

Upon impact with flesh Ranger Talon performs identical to conventional hollowpoint bullets. However, as it penetrates and slows it does not suffer a decrease in effective bullet diameter.

Which really is no different for any sharp edged bullet including the old fashioned full wadcutter.