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In some jurisdiction's the police are now entering homes to tell the homeowners their doors are ajar or unlocked, including entering their bedrooms.
Please provide ANY proof of this. You, in all seriousness, expect us to believe there are jurisdictions in which the police go and try all the doors of houses, and enter any that are unlocked? I call Bravo Sierra. Not only is that completely idiotic, it would be a crime.
John
I give a clear example, that your folks say were off topic. Your house, your rules.
But it really did happen, and has happened in other places too. Whether you believe it or not.
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I accept your apology. I guess this is where you will now punish me.
Don't be (more) ridiculous. The police walked in an open door. They did not open the door. I just asked for proof, not an entire OT thread.
Now you say that the article I started a thread with is NOT proof. Why? Only your articles count? It happens. You may choose to ignore it, I don’t.
In that thread several folks started to discuss other examples too. But then it was locked. The discussion was locked. Again, your house, your rules.
Now what could I use as “proof”. I can’t prove Pearl Harbor happened either, by your standards. Only photographs, film, and print. And yes I would find most of that on the internet.
You may well choose to disagree with me, your option, but do not tell me I didn’t see and do what I did and saw. Please don’t insult me, take The High Road.
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I have only been in approximately 97 military fire fights
Fred,
It is difficult for me to believe this, considering you have just claimed you would attach a light to your weapon, direct it upon an intruder, and then believe you "own the initiative".
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Apparently you think I should shoot without ID’ing my target.
An unwarranted assumption.
What other assumption could I possibly make? Help me understand what you are having difficulty believing?
This is true, though I have never lit up the wrong guys. We get court martials for that, these days. I'm not really certain how your (Vietnam?) experience really qualifies that much in what happens in defending your living room. Personally, whenever I get hit by light in a low-light environment, I automatically move, and fast. Weren't you trained this way in the Army?
Interesting, and I am glad for you. In our wars and earlier wars, friendly fire was a substantial casualty producer.
Here is a reference about Friendly fire during the First Iraqi go around:
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=41973
This article states that during World War II it is estimated that 15% of all casualties were friendly fire:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/feb/06/military.iraq
For a historical perspective of Friendly Fire, this from the Napoleonic wars:
Friendly Fire.
In 1809 at Wagram the white-clad Saxon infantry
was fired upon by their French allies.
The soldier's senses were overloaded by what was going on around him, he was anxious as all men are, no matter how poor or excellent troops they are. (I am talking about real combat and real soldiers and not about armchair generals' wargaming.) Stress does funny things to humans, stomachs knot and arses twitch.
- Shortly before the Napoleonic Wars, in 1758 at Ticonderoga, Capitaine Trepezec led a group of 350 French light infantry and scouts. Near the Bernetz Brook they attacked British light troops and the famous Rogers' rangers. The French were fighting "from tree to tree" and created profoundly disruptive commotion not only among the enemy's light troops but also within the main body. In this chaos two columns of British infantry mistook each other for the enemy and fired on each other as fast as they could. Only night stopped the "fight". An officer of 60th Regiment of Foot wrote : "an extraordinary instance of 11.000 men being driven in and thrown into utter confusion by 350."
- In 1809 at Talavera, British II/87th and I/88th Regiment of Foot became so disordered and frightened after French attack that they fired at each other. Both regiments then took cover behind the 45th and 60th Regiment of Foot, reformed and the British division retreated, covered by cavalry. The British lost 440 men (incl. 100 who surrendered) while the French lost less than 100.
- In 1809 at Wagram, the white-clad Saxon infantry was fired upon by their French allies because the French confused the white uniforms of the Saxons with the white outfits of their Austrian adversaries.
- In 1811 at Fuentes de Onoro, the French infantry took their allies, the Hannoverian Legion, for an English battalion and opened fire on them. The Hannoverians with over 100 dead hastily retreated past the village.
- In 1815 at Waterloo, the Nassauers were fired upon by their Prussian allies because they were still wearing the French style uniforms. The shooting went on for at least 10 minutes (!) before the officers on both sides realized their mistake.
- Friendly fire happened not only to troops in close formation, also the skirmishers suffered. In August 1812 at Polotzk, two companies of the Russian 26th Jager Regiment were sent in skirmish order to drive the French out of the wood. The skirmishers were met with musket fire, charged with bayonets without firing and went through the wood. They halted on the edge of the wood and only then began firing on the French skirmishers standing in the open. The commander of 26th Jager Regiment sent two more companies to push the enemy even further. Unfortunately the newcomers were so confused in the wood covered with smoke that they opened fire on their own troops. The brave skirmishers suffered from enemy fire and from friendly fire for a half an hour.
- In 1815 at Quatre Bras, the Hihlanders mistook the Netherlands cavalry for French and fired. Williams writes: "There then occuredd one of those tragic incidents of war in which men die in error at the hands of friends. Seeing the Netherlands in blue (hussars) and green (light dragoons) galloping wildly toward the crossroads and hearing them shouting in French, the Scots of the 92nd and 42nd Highland along the Namur road mistook them for French and were ordered to open fire on them. Many horses in particular were brought down, as they presented the largest targets ... van Merlen was left to reflect with sadness on the losses his unit had suffered and with bitterness that more had been caused by their 'Scotch' allies than by the French."
- At Albuera, the British infantry fired in the backs of their allies, the Spaniards under General Zayas, before they realized their mistake. For a while the Spaniards were under fire from two sides: from the rear by the British and from the front by the French.
- At Waterloo, the counter-attacking British infantry (Picton's division) fired on their allies, the Belgians under the command of General Bylandt, whose uniforms resembled the enemy's. Shortly thereafter, having realized their error, they mistook French troops for Belgians and let them get away.
- in the very last stage of the battle of Waterloo, the British 52nd Light Infantry mistook 23rd Light Dragoons for enemy and fired. It resulted in great disorder and hesitation among the troops.
I can get you references of more and other friendly fire situations, although I don’t think they called it that, back when they were fighting with Bows and arrows and swords and spears.
This stuff happens in REAL COMBAT.
As to getting off the mark, when you get caught in the other guys killing ground, you had better move, cause you ARE GOING TO GET HIT and get hurt, no matter how fast you move, assuming the other guy isn’t incompetent.
You ID the target, normally with a White light and in my case a shuck for punctuation, (I am not going to night vision stuff), and right after you light them up, if they do anything but what they are told, you “lite them up”. You “Get Some!”
A Sad example of this was the Tillman case. Unlike you, those Rangers apparently weren’t trained to move quickly out of the zone. In real combat real and dangerous stuff happens.
The only court martial’s I know of were of folks that were not following procedure, usually, pilots. I know Dong Ha got hit by Army 175’s for about 40 minutes in the late summer of 69. The mostly hit the poor Sea Bee’s.
What more ‘proof’ do you want? Of course disagree with me, but don’t be so uninformed to call BS.
Once again, I accept your belated apology. I was a Marine, not in the army. Our doctrine is/was, when ambushed, immediate action, attack TOWARDS the fire, not runaway. Most ambushes allow for everything but for the instigators to be attacked. I know when ever I set up an ambush, with enough troops, I would set up additional surprises for the NVA that chose to escape along the routes I figured they would, or I would set up for them to use. Often didn’t have enough troops, but could and would use C4 & detcord, grenades and claymores etc.
By the way, when combat is very intense, friendly fire situations will happen, I don’t wish it on any of our troops. God Bless ‘em.
Go figure.
Fred
