On line customer/dealer ethics question.

[forward observer]

I was looking at a firearm with no bids that was ending within a few hours.

There was no reserve nor a "buy it now" price--just a starting opening bid which was about all I would have paid anyway.

There was a shipping fee of $30 and of course as many sellers do, they indicated that the winning bid price was a cash discount, so if one wanted to pay with a credit card it would cost 3.5% more.

I sent a message to the seller asking if he would accept X amount which would include both shipping and the credit card fee.
The offer amounted to only $10 less than if I bid and won the item at minimum and then paid shipping and the extra 3.5% to use my Discover card. (I always pay off Discover in the next cycle, so there's no interest plus I get a cash back reward)

I figured if he accepted, I would enter the bid and he would simply close out the auction early. Instead, I get an email that he will accept, he has the gun on hold for me, and to call him Monday morning to handle the payment and arrange FFL stuff.

I go check the auction and it is closed out. It appears that he is planning to conduct the sale outside the auction site and therefore not pay them their 3% brokerage fee.

I'm saving $10, but he is making up for that by stiffing the auction site for $30.

I sent him an Email back saying that I did not intend to take the transaction outside of the system and that I was uncomfortable with doing so. The seller has almost three thousand transactions with an A+ rating, so I'm sure he will ship the gun. That's not my concern.

However, this kind of stuff can get both the buyer and seller suspended if the site finds out.
They probably won't but the most important thing is that I simply don't feel right in doing it this way.

Am I overly moral here since I'm not the one actually shorting the auction site although I am complicit in the deal?

 

[DHJenkins]

IMO, it stopped being a legitimate auction when you hammered out a deal through email.

He had to cancel the auction because someone could have bid on it after you two had reached an agreement; yes, he may profit slightly by doing so, but the only reason you got your $10 off was *because* he was able to "stiff" gunbroker.

 

[larryh1108]

Deal offered, deal accepted.
You initiated going outside the auction with the email.
He went outside the auction by accepting and closing it.
It happens more than you think.
Ethical? Perhaps not so much.
However, with over 3,000 transactions, the auction has made a lot off of him.
I'm willing to bet this wasn't the first time nor will it be the last time it happens.
Ebay got so tired of it that buying outside the auction is nearly impossible with
the way they set up asking a question to the buyer. If the auction site felt the
same way they could do the same thing.

 

[forward observer]

First of all, I did not initiate anything outside the auction system. I used the GB.com messaging system, so all of our Emails have GB.com logo's printed all over them.

However, it worked out correctly. He ended the auction so he could relist with a "buy it now" price that was $10 lower than the previous un-bid minimum.

It just took some time for him to do this and I jumped the gun. (pun intended) With the shipping and the credit card fee it will work out to exactly what I offered. The site is not getting stiffed for their commission.

They are however getting 30 cents less than before the re-list or 3% of $10

I am used to haggling over a gun deal and the sites make it a bit hard.

Some sites such as EBay have a "make me an offer" function where the seller can refuse or accept. I suggested this once to the people at Gunbroker.com and got a reply that basically accused me of having criminal intentions.



I assure you that at 68 years, my moral compass is quite straight.

Cheers

 

[larryh1108]

I am a seller on ebay and Gunbroker. I wish Gunbroker would offer a Make Offer feature like Ebay has. Many buyers don't like reserve auctions. I won't bid on a reserve auction. So, you start the bid at what you hope to get and let it ride. Sometimes you may be a bit high and with the Make Offer feature you can get a feel for the value.

 

[vamo]

If a local shop put their inventory on gunbroker, I could walk in say I see you have this listed for $xxx online I'll give you $yyy instead, deal could be completed and would be cancelled online. Sellers that are businesses usually list their address in the auction and gunbroker does not seem to care.

I don't see how my scenario is different from yours other than you're communicating electronically instead of in person.

 

[newfalguy101]

It takes about 15 minutes or so for an auction to re-list after closing.

Sounds like everything went as planned for you and the seller. I have done similar deals in the past where I let an auction run its course and re-listed at a buy it now aimed at one particular buyer.........I got what I need out of the item, the buyer saved a few bucks and GB got their cut from my listing.

GB didn't "lose" anything as the auction was ended with NO bids, therefore, there were no final fees. Sellers only pay final fees on SOLD guns.

Oh, and for what its worth, you DID make your offer "off-site" as you made an offer that was under the minimum bid and the seller accepted........the fact the seller ran it through GB doesn't change that.

 

[HexHead]

I am a seller on ebay and Gunbroker. I wish Gunbroker would offer a Make Offer feature like Ebay has. Many buyers don't like reserve auctions. I won't bid on a reserve auction. So, you start the bid at what you hope to get and let it ride. Sometimes you may be a bit high and with the Make Offer feature you can get a feel for the value.

Or you get a bunch cheapskates wasting your time. Make an Offer is only one step removed from Craigslist.

 

[forward observer]

I have only bought on GB.com, but have both bought and sold on EBay and there are good and bad aspect to both.

From when I started selling on EBay back in 2007, they have constantly jacked up their rates, and automated stuff to the point that it very hard to navigate through the selling system.

Still paying only 3% to GB.com is a heck of lot better than paying 10% to EBay.

Cheers

 

[forward observer]

It takes about 15 minutes or so for an auction to re-list after closing.

Oh, and for what its worth, you DID make your offer "off-site" as you made an offer that was under the minimum bid and the seller accepted........the fact the seller ran it through GB doesn't change that.

Obviously we are looking at this differently. In my opinion, my offer was not under the minimum bid.

I offered and planned to post exactly the minimum bid. Over and above that I asked the seller to negotiate and assume some of the extraneous cost that GB.com gets no commission on, i.e., shipping and extra credit card fees.

These are simply stated by the seller as supplemental charges over and above the auction price and since they are not figured in bidding process, they represent no income or loss to GB.com.

I was asking for a discount on those extraneous fees and my initial email stated exactly that.

Cheers

 

[larryh1108]

Make an Offer is only one step removed from Craigslist.

You get the low balls offer now with a question to the seller.

Ebay's Make an Offer allows the seller to have control.
If I list something for $500 and also have the Make Offer option, the software is set up the way you want it.

You can set it to automatically accept a pre-set offer. By your choices, you can set it up to accept any offer between $475-$499. So, if someone makes an offer for $480, it automatically accepts the offer and closes the auction.

At the same time you can set it to automatically reject an offer. If a mooch offers $440, the software automatically rejects the offer on your behalf.
You can set it up to submit an offer to you for between $450 and $474.99 where you can accept, decline or counter-offer. You decide all the numbers when you set it up and can change them during the auction. It is mostly automated.
To sum it up:
Listed opening bid: $500
Automatically accept offer: $475-$499.99
Submit to you for counter: $450-$474.99
Automatically reject: Under $450

It's a nice system.

 

[newfalguy101]

Obviously we are looking at this differently. In my opinion, my offer was not under the minimum bid.

I offered and planned to post exactly the minimum bid. Over and above that I asked the seller to negotiate and assume some of the extraneous cost that GB.com gets no commission on, i.e., shipping and extra credit card fees.

These are simply stated by the seller as supplemental charges over and above the auction price and since they are not figured in bidding process, they represent no income or loss to GB.com.

I was asking for a discount on those extraneous fees and my initial email stated exactly that.

Cheers

No, you offered LESS than the asking price, spin it anyway you want to, you offered a lower price than the posted asking price ( I have no issue with what you did, by the way, but lets at least be honest about it )

Asking price INCLUDES not only the bid amount, but also any shipping or CC charges, no two ways about it.

The max amount bid also includes ( or should if you are smart ) all shipping, transfer fee ( if applicable ) and CC fees ( If applicable )

 

[newfalguy101]

Curious, where you are getting your 3% from?? GB uses a sliding regressive scale to calculate final fees, not to mention there are listing fees for listings above the "standard" listing

 

[DHJenkins]

Well, if this teaches us anything, it's to at least ask for a discount from a seller - it obviously can't hurt.

It honestly never occured to me; I just figured "it is what it is" so you take it into consideration when you bid.

 

[larryh1108]

Asking for a discount may work if there are no bids and a few hours left, like the OP did. You may also put it on your watch list and if it gets relisted, that's a good time to make an offer. If you do it at the beginning of a new auction you are wasting your time and theirs.

 

[forward observer]

Curious, where you are getting your 3% from?? GB uses a sliding regressive scale to calculate final fees, not to mention there are listing fees for listings above the "standard" listing

At one time I looked at the fees and noted that there was no insertion fee for standard listings. This seller appears to use a standard listing.

---and I was aware of a sliding scale at some point. However, some time ago, I figured a commission on something I was buying and it averaged out to 3%.
This percentage stuck in my mind and I may have started using it as a fixed number just because I was too lazy to go back and figure it correctly. It's not too far off for the price range of most of the purchases that I make anyway.

However since this listing was close to $1000 it would averaged out to about 2.6%

Consequently GB.com lost a quarter on the deal as the seller ended up handling it.

Cheers

 

[Black Butte]

GB got the shaft, and you saved ten bucks. Why all the fuss?

 

[pockets]

I wish Gunbroker would offer a Make Offer feature like Ebay has.

Please no! I get enough cheap people on Ebay constantly asking if I'd accept 'X amount' as it is. I usually put those folks into the 'no bid' list. After 13 years of selling on Ebay, I don't need the hassle. I'm glad that Ebay feature is an option that I can ignore.

 

[chicharrones]

Ebay's Make an Offer allows the seller to have control.
If I list something for $500 and also have the Make Offer option, the software is set up the way you want it.

To sum it up:
Listed opening bid: $500
Automatically accept offer: $475-$499.99
Submit to you for counter: $450-$474.99
Automatically reject: Under $450

It's a nice system.

Yep, I like it. The only time I get low ball offers on eBay messaging is when I don't use the "make an offer" system.

 

[mrvco]

All that for $10 on a $1000 deal?

Oy vey.

 

[Captcurt]

I get so tired of email haggling. It is is almost to the point of posting a No Haggling line in the listing. Most of my listings on GB are consignment. When someone offers less I have no say in the price. It was listed as the minimum and it stays there. I thought about posting a NO LOWBALLS line, but that just didn't sound right.

 

[Tirod]

Ending within a few hours means potential buyers may have been waiting to bid without escalating into a bid war. That is the typical method now. Nobody prebids against an item that is at the final price most would likely pay. They wait to the last few seconds based on their perception of the upload time and take the gamble they are faster than some other guy.

It's really a gambling kind of thing. In no way does it mean the auction lacked interest whatsoever. It gets really interesting directly after - some buyers have remorse and ask to be let out of the deal, the next in line gets it.

Offering an under the table deal and then having the auction cancelled didn't help them whatsoever. That is what many auction sites guard against, with strict rules. It's likely why he had to relist at the offered price as a buy it now deal, or get disciplined.

All that had to happen was bid a few minutes before the end, and accept the results. Regardless of what is bid, everyone takes their chances and lives with it, fair and square. That process was interrupted. The result is that guys who thought they had a chance for a date were cancelled because she had to attend her wedding.

Ask them what they think about it.

 

[larryh1108]

That tactic is called sniping and is just as off color as all the other games that are played. Ask him what they think? Who cares what they think. If they wanted it, they had a chance to bid properly and take their chances. If they want to snipe then they take the chance of not winning whether by a higher snipe or an early closing. Play the game fair and usually good things occur. That's how the system is supposed to work.

 

[TennJed]

You asked for him to make a deal lower than his opening bid and are upset that he wants to take it outside the acution? You are trying to get a deal not offered to anyone else on the site, you are the one who took it off auction.

You made have used the messaging service, but when your deal was made seperate and a deal no one else had a chance to match or beat. Not sure why you shoudl be upset with him.

 

[Captcurt]

That tactic is called sniping and is just as off color as all the other games that are played. Ask him what they think? Who cares what they think. If they wanted it, they had a chance to bid properly and take their chances. If they want to snipe then they take the chance of not winning whether by a higher snipe or an early closing. Play the game fair and usually good things occur. That's how the system is supposed to work.

And then there is the chance that someone will walk into the shop and buy it off of the rack. I dearly love to close an auction on the last day with a sale to a local buyer. LOVE IT!