On the Subjects 0f Education, Training, and Practice

[ClickClickD'oh]

My thought pattern was that MOST officer involved shooting in the past 2 years,have shown that LEO's are getting shot up and NOT winning gun fights

<Citation Needed>

Let's try some facts (also, I didn't fail to notice that somehow "Decades" became "2 years", but I'll let that little inconsistency slide):

Officer deaths to gunfire
2018: 52
2017: 42
2016: 64

People killed by police:
2018: 992
2017: 976
2016: 963

Officer to perp ratio:
2018: 1:19
2017: 1:23
2016: 1:15

So, again, you can have your own opinions, but you can't have your own facts. The facts are that police deaths in the line of duty are way down per capita versus what they were in prior decades. The facts are that police are winning the vast majority of lethal force engagements with a kill to loss ratio that would make a Top Gun instructor proud.

If you have facts that back your claim that in most lethal force encounters police are getting shot up and not winning the fight, please share them with us

And to express your own ,possibly narrow view of the officers you know is a nice idea.

And I will attest to the fact that most officers are not shooters OR gun people.

But the few hundred officers I know,and the thousands I have met were trying real hard to just survive their next shift.

That's an interesting, and completely pointless Appeal to Authority. Please try to stick with something that can be quantified instead of, "I think I know more officers than you, so I must be right"

Also, I never said officers were gun people or shooters, so nice Strawman there.

 

[Jeff White]

My thought pattern was that MOST officer involved shooting in the past 2 years,have shown that LEO's are getting shot up and NOT winning gun fights.

Really? Do you have some documentation of this or are you basing this assumption on news reports? As far as I am aware of, there is no national database of police shootings. The Washington Post in conjunction with notorious cop hater Radley Balko is trying to compile one based on news reports. But there is no formal reporting system where all of the police uses of deadly force are compiled. The FBI UCR only records shootings that result in fatalities. And UCR reporting is voluntary.

I'd be interested in seeing your data. No one else seems to have it.

I truly wish that all would take a great deal more training,such as the 2 that I just went to a training session in Tn. [ Carry Trainer ] who spent their own money and it was a pricey thing too.

Everyone here wishes that. Unfortunately the sad reality is that police departments aren't staffed like the military. They can't stand down a third of the department for a training cycle, a third for a maintenance and recovery cycle and serve the public with the other third. Many officers do train on their own. But most of them who do, do so on their own time and on their own dime. And that takes money and time away from their families. What I discovered when I was budgeting training is that the biggest cost is not the training or the ammunition. It's the overtime to cover the officers who aren't doing their assigned duties because they are training.

Training has improved by several magnitudes since the "officer survival" movement in the community started after the Newhall incident.

 

[1911 guy]

I have an opinion on trainers. I have also "seen the elephant", as some like to say. They shot at me and I shot at them.

I had the luxury of good training before I went. The "gun stuff" was fun. Run around and shoot stuff. PT a lot. All the cool stuff a testosterone-laden 20-something guy wants to do The classroom stuff was BORING... But that's what probably saved some of our lives. A tall, thin man with a short grey beard and a bunch of letters after his name explained to us in great detail what to expect under stress. He coached us in methods to deal with the effects of stress, both before and after the events. He prepared us to deal with some of the thoughts we'd have during and after stressful events.

He said the last time he'd experienced violence was a fistfight in grade school. But he made a living as a psychiatrist studying, understanding and teaching about the effects of stress on the body and mind. I learned a lot from someone who never saw combat.

 

[scaatylobo]

<Citation Needed>



So, again, you can have your own opinions, but you can't have your own facts. The facts are that police deaths in the line of duty are way down per capita versus what they were in prior decades. The facts are that police are winning the vast majority of lethal force engagements with a kill to loss ratio that would make a Top Gun instructor proud.






.

I guess my point was still not taken in context.

Officer killed in the line of duty ,actual numbers might be different from year to year.

My point was /is that the officers KIA are not taking out the perp's and the perp's are still alive ------- unless they take their own lives.

That is what speaks volumes to me and why I started making comments here.

52 DEAD officers last year and so far 21 this year !.

How many of those murdered men got to stop the attackers ?.

Fact is,VERY damned few [ if in fact any got their man ].

These men were for the most part trained by those that watched videos,spoke to real survivors,or read a great deal.

As to how many were shot by officers,I don't give a slight hoot 'n' a holler.

After 26 years on the job,I never saw an "innocent man" shot by any in this state.

Yes,it has happened ,but the actual number is not even a slight percentage of those that required lead to stop their actions.

And the training I went to with the active duty members was out of pocket for both of them.

They know how important is the ability to protect and HIT what you need to.

On their dime and their time !.

Guess we can call it a day here,no one is backing down so I bid y'all a good day.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

My point was /is that the officers KIA are not taking out the perp's and the perp's are still alive ------- unless they take their own lives.

Wait... your whole point was that if you get dead first you lose the fight?

Okay. Great point.. no one every considered that before </end sarcasm>

As to how many were shot by officers,I don't give a slight hoot 'n' a holler.

Then you are manifestly unfit to comment on training. Any good trainer will tell you that no matter how good you are, no matter how well trained you are, no matter how prepared and how well equipped you are, the other guy still gets a vote and sometimes they win. In order to understand how effective your force is, you have to objectively look at how your force performs overall, not on a case by case basis. If the only number you care about is how many officers are getting killed, and you aren't concerned at all with how many they are putting down in turn, then you quite simply don't understand what you are talking about.

Yes, in an ideal world we would all prefer that no officers die, but that's just not going to happen. The real world goal is to make sure officers win as many engagements as possible. Any honest and objective review of the facts shows that not only are officers being killed less overall, but less per capita and winning engagements at an astonishing rate. 1:19 is an incredible rate.

 

[Jenrick]

Okay I'll bite, because using dead officers or military members in an internet fights hits me in a special place.

How many of those murdered men got to stop the attackers ?.

Fact is,VERY damned few [ if in fact any got their man ].

Go take a look at ODMP and tell me how many of the officers killed in the line of duty by gunfire, were killed in a "gunfight." A two way exchange of gunfire. Pretty small, very small. The vast majority are killed from ambush, or in a shooting, not in a gunfight. Those numbers have no bearing on your supposed masses of officers who can't win gunfights. It seems that you once wore a badge, for that I'll be far more polite than I am inclined to be and leave my point at this.

 

[Balrog]

Training: Very important.

But thousands of untrained people successfully defend themselves each year with firearms.

And thousands of untrained people successfully commit crimes with guns each year.