One in the chamber of a KT P-11?

[SniperStraz]

Is it safe to carry a Kel-Tec P-11 with one in the chamber? It is a DAO weapon, but there is not manual safety catch nor is there a backstrap safety and unlike a Glock it has no trigger safety. When it is "Cocked and Unlocked" are there any springs under tension that would leave a danger of accidental disgarge if dropped?

 

[Jim Watson]

No.
It is approximately as safe as a revolver.

 

[M2 Carbine]

I've had a P-11 since they first came out and like Mr Watson said it's about the same as a revolver.

If you want a external safety on a P-11 clone buy a Skyy.

I recently bought one to try it out.
It has a thumb safety on the rear of the frame, just above the thumb.

If I ever considered using the gun for defense or carry the first thing I'll do is disable the thumb safety, even if I have to super glue it in the Off position.

An external safety on a gun such as the P-11 or Skyy is unnecessary and can actually be a hazard.

 

[chris in va]

The trigger pull on the P11 is probably longer/tougher than a revolver. It's meant to be carried with one chambered. Frankly all CCW firearms are designed for that, otherwise they shouldn't be made.

 

[MCgunner]

One of the safest DAO's I know to carry and why I like the trigger even though some guys hate it, especially those that have never mastered any sort of DA trigger. The whole idea of the long, heavy pull, revolver or DAO auto, is safe carry. But, DA shooting definitely takes some learning and practice. Anyone can do it, but you have to put in the effort.

 

[Correia]

unlike a Glock it has no trigger safety

So let me get this right... A Glock with a short-travel, approximately 6 pound trigger is safer than a Kel Tec with a really long-travel, feels like 12 pound trigger, because the Glock has that little plastic thingy on the trigger?

Okay. I'm with you now.

 

[SniperStraz]

Well Correia...

...If a glock were dropped and the trigger hit something at an angle it would not fire. Thats why its much safer. And just to bring this Q back to the top again: Are there any springs under pressure when the p11 is cocked?

 

[ugaarguy]

If a glock were dropped and the trigger hit something at an angle it would not fire. Thats why its much safer.

The Glock trigger within a trigger is a gimmick that might help if you somehow snagged the trigger, but that's what a trigger guard is for. The pin that blocks the striker is the drop safety. In a Glock the striker is under spring tension (aka partially cocked approx 60% ) and the trigger pull causes the connector to fully cock the striker, disengage the drop safety, and release the striker at the end of the stroke.

And just to bring this Q back to the top again: Are there any springs under pressure when the p11 is cocked?

A round in the chamber is not the same as the pistol being cocked. Yes there are springs under tension when a P-11 is cocked, but a P-11 is not cocked at all until you pull the trigger. The P-11 has a triggerguard, so it doesn't need a doo-hickey sticking out of the middle of the trigger that claims to be a safety. The P-11 is just like a DA revolver in terms of safe carry.

 

[RecoilRob]

Trying to clarify a bit....the P-11 cannot be 'cocked' which implies the hammer being held/locked back in a state of readiness to fire. It is DAO and only moves the hammer when the trigger is pulled.

Without trigger pressure, the hammer rests on the inertial firing pin which is too short to reach the primer of a chambered round...so it should be safe to carry.

However, the factory firing pin spring isn't strong enough to prevent drop firing if it lands on the muzzle from over 4 feet or so. Wolff makes a HD spring that makes it safe to over 8 feet dropped if the stock spring doesn't seem safe enough.

I carry the P-11 fully loaded every day with total confidence in it being safe yet ready with only a pull of the trigger.

 

[wally]

I've read reports on the web of Kel-Tec P11s discharging when dropped onto pavement. Try a Google search. Are they available in MA and/or CA? Both states have drop test requirements for new guns sold there, I don't like the requirement, but I'd not carry a gun that fails these tests! It they have passed the MA/CA drop tests I wouldn't worry about it, if they failed, I would!

Its posible the guns I've read about were modified by their owers to "improve the trigger".

--wally.

Edit, Good job RecoilRob, I'd have had nothing to say if your post had come in before I started composing!

 

[alamo]

However, the factory firing pin spring isn't strong enough to prevent drop firing if it lands on the muzzle from over 4 feet or so.

This is correct. If you drop it on concrete or something very hard from 4+ feet and it happens to land muzzle down, it could go off. It has no hammer block unlike the PF-9, P-3AT and P-32.

 

[VHinch]

"If a glock were dropped and the trigger hit something at an angle it would not fire. Thats why its much safer." :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

As has already been explained, the trigger pull on the Kel Tec is almost double that of the Glock. I really don't think you should be all that concerned with dropping your gun and the trigger hitting something.

Virtually any modern weapon is perfectly safe to carry with a round chambered. An AD/ND is far more likely the fault of operator error than that of mechanical failure or some freak drop accident. Do your part and carry the gun as it was meant to be carried.

Judging by many of the posts you've made here, you are attempting to learn more about the safe operation of firearms, but there is much to learn that you aren't going to get off of an internet gun board. If you are at a skill level where you are seriously concerned about carrying with a round chambered, I would strongly recommend that you get some sort of formal training.

V

 

[hotpig]

I had a P11 back in 1999 that I had in a small of the back holster made by Uncle Mike's.


I was bent over putting veggies in my refrigerator and the holster fell causing a nd. The 147gr Silver tip blew a small hole in my linoleum floor right between my legs and three feet from my wife. The retention strap was still in place even after the discharge. The bottom of the holster was blown to shreds.



When I examined the gun trying to figure out how it discharged it was easy to see what impacted the floor first.

Looking straight at the muzzle and using the front site as the 12 o clock position for reference. At the 10 o clock position there was a slight mark from hitting the floor. The weight of a full mag must had caused the slide to go back enough to cause it to fire when it went back forward. That is the only thing that I could come up with. The gun functioned 100% before and after the nd.

Lesson learned was not to buy cheap holsters.

 

[alamo]

Are they available in MA and/or CA? Both states have drop test requirements for new guns sold there, I don't like the requirement, but I'd not carry a gun that fails these tests! It they have passed the MA/CA drop tests I wouldn't worry about it, if they failed, I would!

KT pistols don't have a manual safety so they're not sold in CA. They sell all they can make so they don't feel any need to modify their pistols to sell them there. Seecamp and NAA modified theirs to sell in CA.

As far as drop tests go, I hope you don't own a SIG P-229! One of them failed a drop test from 4 feet on to a rubber mat, not concrete. So did a Kahr. I would think a P-11 would pass that test on a rubber mat.


http://www.nlectc.org/pdffiles/pistolsbulletin2000.pdf

 

[wally]

Nice link, thanks.

Curious that the Kahr K9 passed but the MK40 didn't. I'm shocked about the SIG P229 as I thought it has a firing pin block specifically to prevent such a thing. Also curious that SIG P220 (.45) and SIG P229 in 9mm passed. Only failures were in .40S&W, not sure I can make sense of this.

Also interesting that the Kimber Stainless Ultra Carry in .40S&W passed the drop test but failed the firing test afterward (drop tests broke gun), whereas the .45 Ultra Cary passed both tests.

I once dropped my loaded and holstered Kahr PM40 while putting it on the top shelf of the safe, and it did not discharge (I also jumped back instead of trying to catch it, being aware that a major cause of ND is trying to catch a dropped gun!)

--wally.

 

[carterbeauford]

Glock: light trigger, drop proof.
Kel Tec: heavy trigger, not drop proof.

Damned if you do and damned if you don't. I carry a P11 with one in the pipe and try not to drop it. Not really worried about a ND because the trigger pull is about 37LB.

 

[RecoilRob]

HotPig....

The P-11's hammer rests on the firing pin. It doesn't weigh very much and it works because it strikes the pin at very high velocity.

If you push on the hammer with the slide down, you will notice that you can push it and the pin forward about 1/16" or so before the hammer contacts the slide rear.

When dropped, the FP moves forward by its' own momentum and is given an additional shove by the hammers'. The slide will also move back a tad which further pushes the FP into the hammer.

Like has been said, 4ft. seems to be the threshold of 'drop danger' with the stock FP spring. If you reduce the hammers' main spring tension a bit, and add the Wolff FP spring, you can move the drop safety range up into the 'shame on you if you make it go off' range.

Slightly modified, you would have been rewarded with a dull 'clunk' when you dropped yours. Glad no one was injured but it WOULD be unsettling, for sure! Also happy that when one of these drop fires does happen, it invariably results in the bullet going straight into the floor. Ricochet injury is still possible so it is not to be taken lightly.

 

[ugaarguy]

Following on my first post this thread. I could not remember if the P-11 had an FP block or not. Most modern DA revolvers have an FP block and/or a transfer bar operating mechanism with it's safety features. All that to say that a Glock would be safer than an un-modified P-11 for drop safety, but only because of the striker block. The P-11s longer & heavier trigger pull are better at warding off an ND by way of a snagged trigger.

Regradless of the gun, this thread brings up two very important issues. 1) Never get complacent, and always practice safe gun handling. 2) Invest in quality holsters (they don't have to be expensive) to minimize the risk of drops, bumps, etc.

 

[hotpig]

Thanks RecoilRob

 

[Maximum1]

The P-11 has no safeties because it doesn’t have a hair trigger in fact its longer trigger pull is the reason Kel-Tec didn’t add manual safeties. I’ve carried the P-11 since it came out and feel completely confident in the no manual safety…In fact, I use to carry another autoloader but didn’t feel comfortable with the “cocked and lock” set up.

 

[Maximum1]

One other comment; I can't imagine anyone would CCW and not have one in the chamber...To do otherwise is foolish.


Just think the bad guy draws a knife is 20' or less which is 1.5 (+/-) secs from you and he's now on a full charge towards you....You reach for your firearm and instead of taking defensive firing action you first stop to rack the slide to load a round...Opps too late you've been stabbed.

 

[hotpig]

I would think you might be a little safer going unarmed vs not having a round chambered.

I think you might be better off unarmed begging for you life vs armed and caught without a round in the chamber.

 

[SniperStraz]

If you consider yourself...

...able to clear a jam and/or FTF quickly, then you can most certainly rack the slide in time. I always practice drawing racking and firning in a very fast sequence. I would feel confident about being able to do it for sure.

 

[Maximum1]

SniperStraz, with all due respect if I apply your logic one may as well walk around with their CCW with a jammed round (after all one should be "able to clear a jam and/or FTF quickly") OR no round in the chambered….Let’s get real why would anyone want to give away time in a threatening situation by stopping to rack a slide? :banghead: As an earlier post mentioned it would be safer not to carry than to carry with no round chambered...

As for me, I strongly believe it would be foolish to CCW and not have one chambered.

 

[SniperStraz]

The difference is...

...that you never know how long it will take to clear a chamber, but you know exactly how long it will take to rack the slide to load the chamber. I agree that there should be one in the chamber and thats why I asked if its safe in a keltec. I think there should be one in the chamber all the time, I'm just trying to find out the safety specifics.