Open carry in California

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jnojr

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I cannot find any provisions in the California penal code that prohibit the open carrying of an unloaded firearm. 12025, 12026, and 12031 are the sections that pertain. I have no doubt that someone who did openly carry an unloaded sidearm could expect to encounter the police. It's been suggested that such an individual could be charged with "brandishing", but I cannot find a statute that fits, nor a legal definition of the term "brandishing". Does anyone have any light to shed?
 
AFAIK, open carry is legal in California except for some local ordnances. I'm not about to try it though. Maybe Jim March will be along and can point to some test cases that have no doubt occurred.
 
There is nothing in the world less useful than an openly carried unloaded handgun. And nothing else in California more likely to get you at the bottom of a pig-pile.

Just...don't, OK?
 
Could you still have the mags in a carrier or in your pocket, or do you also have to divest yourself entirely of ammo?
 
I thought about this a while back, and decided that it would be pretty much worthless to open carry. I can imagine it: walking around SD with an empty gun, everyone around me going nuts, cops called, getting arrested for "causing a disturbance" or some other catch-all law, when they can't get you on anything better. Not to mention the fact that if I had to use the gun it would take several seconds under stress to make it shoot. Pretty much a waste of time, IMHO.
 
Yep, typical legslitation. The only legal alternative left is one that's utterly useless.

Open Carry of a LOADED firearm outside of city limits (and county "Populated Areas") IS permitted!

And in at least some counties, there is near shal-issue CCW.
 
The crime of brandishing is defined by Penal Code section 417. You'd probably have to research any case law for this section to find a definition identifying specific acts but generally it's applied to waving or pointing a firearm in conjunction with threatening behavior or language. Simply walking around in open carry absent any other behavior or action would not qualify for prosecution under the statute. You could very well be detained or arrested for violation of a local ordinance however.
 
I do it sometimes

When I go to the cow palace gun shows,a few raised eybrows from the gunnies but the cops could care less about it.

I wouldn't walk around SF like that though...
I would travel anywhere in the state to participate in a demo that had open carry.
 
I think open carry of a loaded firearm is illegal in California due to a law passed in 1967 to address the black panthers. Unfortunately their efforts at scaring the Legislature by storming it with loaded rifles made them react really badly.
 
There were two brothers (who used to live in Arizona, but were born in Kal) that would carry openly, one a 1911 the other with a .357.

They would swap mags/speedloaders so that they were not carrying the ammo for their gun.

They got plenty of LEO contact, but there was nothing the LEOs could do to further infringe on their rights.

The brothers did this as a hobby.

BTW, the law was changed 35 years ago because the Black Panthers began going armed to protect themselves from police abuse.

Rick
 
My (mostly) rhetorical question was prompted by two things...

1) An unloaded gun, with magazines on the other hip, is a lot more useful than no gun at all. Sure, if someone sticks a gun in my face it won't help, but then neither would a loaded gun. On the other hand, if I saw a robbery, mugging, etc. it only takes three seconds to slam a magazine home and rack the slide.

2) The whole "getting the sheople used to it" thing. We're reading about more and more instances of people carrying legally getting harassed because the sheople have been conditioned to freak out when they see a gun.
 
The problem of open carrying unloaded is;

if you are stopped, what are you going to say? "Officer, I'm carrying to protect myself."

"Unloaded??"

:uhoh: :scrutiny: :rolleyes:

Just don't. You will get stopped, you will have the cops hold you for as long as they can, until they pass you off to the next one... :rolleyes:
 
Lonnie Wilson
I think open carry of a loaded firearm is illegal in California due to a law passed in 1967 to address the black panthers. Unfortunately their efforts at scaring the Legislature by storming it with loaded rifles made them react really badly.
You are mistaken. There are many & various County and City restrictions, but the State law does not restrict it.
 
I'll say it more clearly - Open LOADED Carry in rural / National Forest / BLM lands for NON-hunting purposes is Legal in CA.
MANY Counties have seen fit to restrict this, but even here in Los Angeles County, there are exemptions for 'unincorporated' (non-city) lands.
 
There were two brothers (who used to live in Arizona, but were born in Kal) that would carry openly, one a 1911 the other with a .357.

They would swap mags/speedloaders so that they were not carrying the ammo for their gun.

They got plenty of LEO contact, but there was nothing the LEOs could do to further infringe on their rights.

The brothers did this as a hobby.

BTW, the law was changed 35 years ago because the Black Panthers began going armed to protect themselves from police abuse.

So I'm guessing that the answer to my question is that, no, you can't even have the ammo on your person whatsoever, even if it's in mags/speedloaders?
 
I'm not aware of any California penal code section that says anything about carrying ammo being "loaded". They just tried to pass a bill to get "loaded" to mean "ammo in proximity", but I don't think it went anywhere.

If a firearm has no round in the chamber and no magazine inserted, it isn't "loaded" even if it's buried in a stack of full magazines.
 
Unless you have a permit of some kind or on your own property, it is general against the law to posses any LOADED firearm in any area you can not discharge it.

Open carry is legal if the weapon is unloaded, but expect to draw a lot of police attention. If you have just one round of ammo on your person you are subject to arrest for having both a firearms and ammo in a "public place".

Contrary to popular opinion, concealed carry is legal for most people in California. However the gun must be UNLOADED (you must not have any ammo on your person) AND you must be going to or from HUNTING, FISHING, or several other listed activities.

Finally, most police are not gun people. They do not know the laws. If in doubt they will arrest/detain. Some will ask for a supervisor. If you do anything out of the ordinary they are confused.
 
Unless you have a permit of some kind or on your own property, it is general against the law to posses any LOADED firearm in any area you can not discharge it.

"generally"? What statute? Where is this in writing? If it is not in writing, it is not a law!

What would the cop charge me with?

Open carry is legal if the weapon is unloaded, but expect to draw a lot of police attention. If you have just one round of ammo on your person you are subject to arrest for having both a firearms and ammo in a "public place".

And charged with violating what statute, exactly? See question above, where is the statute that prohibits ammo in one pocket and an (unloaded) gun on your hip ANYWHERE?

What would the cop charge me with?

Contrary to popular opinion, concealed carry is legal for most people in California. However the gun must be UNLOADED ....<snip> ... AND you must be going to or from HUNTING, FISHING, or several other listed activities.


True, under the following statutes:

12025. (a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when he or she does any of the following:
(1) Carries concealed within any vehicle which is under his or her control or direction any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(2) Carries concealed upon his or her person any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(3) Causes to be carried concealed within any vehicle in which he or she is an occupant any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.



12027. Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the following:

(c) Members of the Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, or Marine Corps of the United States, or the National Guard, when on duty, or organizations which are by law authorized to purchase or receive those weapons from the United States or this state.
(d) The carrying of unloaded pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person by duly authorized military or civil organizations while parading, or the members thereof when going to and from the places of meeting of their respective organizations.
(e) Guards or messengers of common carriers, banks, and other financial institutions while actually employed in and about the shipment, transportation, or delivery of any money, treasure, bullion, bonds, or other thing of value within this state.

(g) Licensed hunters or fishermen carrying pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person while engaged in hunting or fishing, or transporting those firearms unloaded when going to or returning from the hunting or fishing expedition.

(you must not have any ammo on your person)

Where does the law say that? I *DO* see the law stating you must be a Licensed hunter or fisherman (so having a hunting/fishing license that is current is required.)


Finally, most police are not gun people. They do not know the laws. If in doubt they will arrest/detain. Some will ask for a supervisor. If you do anything out of the ordinary they are confused.

ABSOLUTELY 100% TRUE! Infact, CA has so many gun laws that the DOJ dosen't even know all of them, let alone beat cops that have to deal with every mannar of everything. Many cops barely know any firearm laws. Keep this in mind if you are going to push the limits.
 
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This is the first time I have reread the PC 12000 section in years. Boy have they mucked it up. It is now almost unreadable. I just read 12020 to 12031 and looked at 12050. It used to be clear, know it takes hours to muddle through.

The justification I made to get my orginal CCW was there was no way I could not violate PC 12031(a) (1) (Carrying a loaded firearm in a prohibited area.) when going hunting or fishing on my motorcycle. The police were amazed I did not need a permit to carry a concealed weapon, but to carry the ammo on the bike. It only took four more years to get my first permit. They did not like a 22 year old kid quoting the penal code and telling them they were wrong.
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"generally"? What statute? Where is this in writing? If it is not in writing, it is not a law!

What would the cop charge me with?
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That would be PC 12031(a) (1) - Carrying a loaded firearm in a prohibited area. Prohibited Area: 12031(f) "A prohibited area any place where it is unlawfull to discharge a weapon." Case law evolved "loaded" to having ammo on your person or within reach.

The Penal Code states you may shoot a fleeing felon, Case Law says you will go to jail for doing so. Case law trumps written code law.


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And charged with violating what statute, exactly? See question above, where is the statute that prohibits ammo in one pocket and an (unloaded) gun on your hip ANYWHERE?

What would the cop charge me with?
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Again PC 12031(a) (1) - Carrying a loaded firearm in a prohibited area


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quote:
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(you must not have any ammo on your person)
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Where does the law say that? I *DO* see the law stating you must be a Licensed hunter or fisherman (so having a hunting/fishing license that is current is required.)
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Again PC 12031(a) (1) - Carrying a loaded firearm in a prohibited area

There are two laws, one PC 12025 which regulates Concealed Carry ONLY. Just the weapon. Then there is 12031 which regulates carrying a loaded weapon. They are seperate and distinct laws. To carry a loaded weapon in public you must meet 12031 for open carry, and if concealed you must meet the requirments of 12031 and 12025.
 
12031.m.
(a) (1) Every person who carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in a prohibited area of unincorporated territory is guilty of a misdemeanor.

<snip>

(e) In order to determine whether or not a firearm is loaded for the purpose of enforcing this section, peace officers are authorized to examine any firearm carried by anyone on his or her person or in a vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city or prohibited area of an unincorporated territory. Refusal to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm pursuant to this section constitutes probable cause for arrest for violation of this section.

(f) As used in this section, "prohibited area" means any place where it is unlawful to discharge a weapon.

(g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case which holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the firearm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.

So you're saying the case law supports re-definition of 'loaded'? (or rather I suspect, defines 'attached to' as such?)

Yeikes! Where?
 
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