DRZinn
Member
Re: cheap labor
How many people are supported by welfare, again?
How many people are supported by welfare, again?
Open letter to the THR community...
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dmallind
Member
The answer's simple - to do those jobs you have to convince enough people you can. The smartest people are not necessarily the ones in Congress or the corner office, but they are usually the most charming, most charismatic, most convincing, or some combination of those three. That's an inevitable outcome of a plebiscite-based governbment in the former case. If more charming, charismatic and convincing blue collar folks decided to run for congress and put in the party (any party) time required to do so, they'd probably do just as well as equivalently charming, charismatic and convincing blue-bloods. Perhaps even better as they could play up their populist credentials with the still mostly blue collar electorate. I certainly will not say that would be a bad thing, although frankly I doubt it would make much difference once elected. There is nothing magically enlightening or ennobling about manual labor any more than there is anything limiting or degrading about it. I've done plenty of it, and I was no better or worse a person then than I am now when my calluses are gone except on my pen fingers.
Labor, like it or not, is priced like any other good in that it sells for the rate at which enough people are willing to sell. Labor, absent unions perhaps but certainly including executive labor, is priced more than anything in an inverse relationship with the number of people perceived to be capable of doing it. Exceptions occur such as in "prestige" or "vocational" jobs such as elite military groups where very very few people are capable of doing them, but the pride and vocation attracts people more than the money. These are exceptions though. Doctors are paid a lot because it's hard to graduate from medical school and even harder to get in - there aren't many people who can do either. Engineers likewise, although in most cases slightly less pay and slightly more people capable of that route. Accountants? Same but again less pay and more people capable of that academic route. Meatpacking? Sure it's a skill, and sure it requires a premium because of the conditions and risks, but because the perception, fair or not but very real, is that almost anybody with a strong back and a strong stomach can learn to be a meatpacker in some moderate amount of on the job training, it will never be a highly paid job. Remember to be economically viable, labor cannot cost more than the value it provides to teh buyer of that labor (employer). How much can Hormel sell Spam for (in other words what is the perceived value of that product to THEIR customers) and how much does that mean they can value, and pay, their meatpackers?
Academic success is not the ONLY route to high pay. Consider what a highly skilled mechanic or plumber makes - often more than many of the well-educated, and quite probably deservedly so. I know for sure I don't have the skills or training to fix my car engine, so I pay a guy about the same hourly rate I get with my master's degree and solid history of saving companies large amounts of money. I don't begrudge the mechanic that either, but I would begrudge paying a fruitpicker or chambermaid that rate, as would the market for their services. The fact is the number of native born who are willing to be chambermaids and fruitpickers for the market value of those psoitions is insufficient to meet demand for that labor. You can't pay $30 an hour for a job that adds $10 of value per hour to your product.
Labor, like it or not, is priced like any other good in that it sells for the rate at which enough people are willing to sell. Labor, absent unions perhaps but certainly including executive labor, is priced more than anything in an inverse relationship with the number of people perceived to be capable of doing it. Exceptions occur such as in "prestige" or "vocational" jobs such as elite military groups where very very few people are capable of doing them, but the pride and vocation attracts people more than the money. These are exceptions though. Doctors are paid a lot because it's hard to graduate from medical school and even harder to get in - there aren't many people who can do either. Engineers likewise, although in most cases slightly less pay and slightly more people capable of that route. Accountants? Same but again less pay and more people capable of that academic route. Meatpacking? Sure it's a skill, and sure it requires a premium because of the conditions and risks, but because the perception, fair or not but very real, is that almost anybody with a strong back and a strong stomach can learn to be a meatpacker in some moderate amount of on the job training, it will never be a highly paid job. Remember to be economically viable, labor cannot cost more than the value it provides to teh buyer of that labor (employer). How much can Hormel sell Spam for (in other words what is the perceived value of that product to THEIR customers) and how much does that mean they can value, and pay, their meatpackers?
Academic success is not the ONLY route to high pay. Consider what a highly skilled mechanic or plumber makes - often more than many of the well-educated, and quite probably deservedly so. I know for sure I don't have the skills or training to fix my car engine, so I pay a guy about the same hourly rate I get with my master's degree and solid history of saving companies large amounts of money. I don't begrudge the mechanic that either, but I would begrudge paying a fruitpicker or chambermaid that rate, as would the market for their services. The fact is the number of native born who are willing to be chambermaids and fruitpickers for the market value of those psoitions is insufficient to meet demand for that labor. You can't pay $30 an hour for a job that adds $10 of value per hour to your product.
308win
Member
Not necessarily, 50% of them graduate in the bottom half of their class.
(Just a feeble attempt at some light humor; sorry.)Without manufacturing jobs the need for blue collar worker will be gone,
in time a degree will be needed to work at wal-mart.
Perhaps we need to change our flag, a big dollar sign in center with
for sale on top of course we could include stars in that.
I wish you'd make up your mind about us evil Republicans.
We Republicans can either:
Love illegal immigrants because they're cheap labor for our puppy-to-oil conversion plants
-OR-
We can hate illegal immigrants because they drive up tax rates, which are necessary to fund useless social programs, i.e. money that we'd rather spend buying more oil.
One or the other, but it can't be both.
longeyes
member
Yes, and the degree won't be worth much, any more than a lot of degrees are worth now. I believe a lot of degree programs are just make-work for the academic welfare class.
Losing the manual trades is more than just an economic loss. America was built by tinkerers. Many great things came from people with manual arts and an imaginative brain. On THR we can appreciate the importance of hand-eye coordination but hand, eye, and brain have been the great triad of American innovation. You don't get that from video games. Are we now to outsource our iimagination and insource all manual skills?
longeyes
member
The idea that every American should go to college is another of the great myths perpetrated by the usual suspects. If we didn't demean manual labor as much as we do, secretly longing, some of us, to be European gentry, we wouldn't see the answer to our economic future in producing semi-literate "college" graduates who can barely answer a telephone, much less reason about political theory. One reason for the pervasive American unhappiness, part of the reason we are such compulsive debtors, is the feeling that so much of American work has become meaningless. I think this particularly afffects the American male...but that's a whole 'nuther can of worms.
Jammer Six
member
Fallacy.
A popular fallacy, but a fallacy.
The carpenter foreman I replaced was a union member, the job was a union job, with full benefits.
I require carpenter foremen to get out of their car, and remain awake. I require journeymen to work even if they're cold.
The Mexicans I replaced them with did so, and production went through the roof. End of problem.
We get stronger every time an immigrant crosses the border.
Quote: "Try advertising a $9 an hour job and see what applicants you get. Try advertising a backbreaking smelly unsafe job for any realistic pay and see what applicants you get".
Here goes the myth again. You would get one of my sons. He just started a job for $9 and hour and it is hard labor and dangerous.
Don’t try you impress me about working hard for low wages in tough jobs. I have been there & done that….also working 3rd shift swing shift, and even long periods of 12 on 12 off 7 days a week. Also, two jobs one staring a 6:30am and then other at 6pm.
People in the know understand that Americans work jobs just as hard, and dirty, and dangerous, and in many cases for same wages as Illegal Aliens.
Here goes the myth again. You would get one of my sons. He just started a job for $9 and hour and it is hard labor and dangerous.
Don’t try you impress me about working hard for low wages in tough jobs. I have been there & done that….also working 3rd shift swing shift, and even long periods of 12 on 12 off 7 days a week. Also, two jobs one staring a 6:30am and then other at 6pm.
People in the know understand that Americans work jobs just as hard, and dirty, and dangerous, and in many cases for same wages as Illegal Aliens.
Thin Black Line
Member
+3 on all points. I've noticed that as well. Agree with the status quo and
the thread goes on; bring up points that effectively counter it and it
gets shut down. It's the equivalent of when the news channels turn off
a guest's mic or quickly cut away to something else in the middle of a
press conference when a reporter asks a tough question. A great example
was post-OJ when the video was cut on the DA as he made the comment
"And in this case Justice was not served...." (screen goes black). "We seem
to have lost our video connection."
+100. This is complete and utter propaganda being forced down our throats
by BOTH repubs and demos --one gets the cheap labor that can be used
to undercut your fellow citizens and the other gets their votes and excuse
for social programs that expand the nanny-state. The net effect is
eliminating the TRUE middle class in the USA.
Anyone catch the docu called "Rome: The Power and the Glory"? I highly
recommend this since it shows where the US has been and where it is
going. I found it ironic that Roman soldiers were sent to fight far-flung
wars to increase the empire, bring back material resources (and slaves)
and then found themselves returning "home" to their own land gobbled up by
patrons from the next villa over (who did NOT serve) and being tended by
the foreigners (slaves) they had sent back to the empire while they were still
away on the campaign.
Think it through, people, we're being sold out with cheap labor at home,
cheap imports from abroad, small farmers are being forced off their land,
and our NG and Reserve have been sent off to secure distant resources that
are more important for Eurasia than us.
Look up the history of the "Roman hinterland" followed by "soviet
collectivization" for more fun!
"The Mexicans I replaced them with did so, and production went through the roof. End of problem".
I hope the Mexican you replaced him with is paying (and your business) taxes....if so, then that is better than Illegal Aliens that do not pay taxes.
I hope the Mexican you replaced him with is paying (and your business) taxes....if so, then that is better than Illegal Aliens that do not pay taxes.
dmallind
Member
I'm not sure where the resentment and denigration of educated people comes from but it's counterproductive for sure. The countries that are the beneficiaries of our outsourcing are doing the best they can to INCREASE educational attainment in their populations. Both China and India turn out many many more times the technical and scientific graduates than our watered down feel good babysitting (whoops sorry education) systems do. Their school years are signifgicantly - 40% or more - longer than ours. They deliberately seek out the most academically gifted students and make sure they are placed in the most rigorous programs available in meaningful disciplines, not the "everyone is equally smart just in different ways" pablum of home economics and intro to pottery that is secondary education today.
What we need to compete is MORE education, certainly not less. As manufacturing becomes less and less labor intensive (a GOOD thing as it reduces the real cost of manufactured products for us all - how many wage hours to buy a refrigerator in 1950 compared to today?) we need more and more of the people who can design the machines and validate the processes, and fewer who can manipulate and shape the materials. This says absolutely nothing about the inherent worth of both kinds of work, or the people who do it, it just reflects the needs of a modern economy. If we shuffle backwards while India et al are sprinting forwards along this road to increasing education and knowledge-based work, there won't even be white collar jobs left in the US, let alone blue collar. Instead our kids will be the ones clinging to jerry-built rafts looking for jobs picking cotton in Pakistan.
What we need to compete is MORE education, certainly not less. As manufacturing becomes less and less labor intensive (a GOOD thing as it reduces the real cost of manufactured products for us all - how many wage hours to buy a refrigerator in 1950 compared to today?) we need more and more of the people who can design the machines and validate the processes, and fewer who can manipulate and shape the materials. This says absolutely nothing about the inherent worth of both kinds of work, or the people who do it, it just reflects the needs of a modern economy. If we shuffle backwards while India et al are sprinting forwards along this road to increasing education and knowledge-based work, there won't even be white collar jobs left in the US, let alone blue collar. Instead our kids will be the ones clinging to jerry-built rafts looking for jobs picking cotton in Pakistan.
dmallind
Member
Sorry MadMag but that's reality. I speak not theoretically but from experience. My company DOES advertise $9 an hour jobs. Clean, safe, light, air-conditioned, seated, comfortable jobs with good prospects for advancement (we've doubled in size in 6 years - lots of room to move up). Sure this is anecdotal and regional (as is the example of your son, no more and no less so) but it's very real and not at all a fallacy. It's rare indeed to see an anglo face silling out those forms, and not common at all to see a non-ESL speaker. When they do they are often felons, functionally illiterate, or have had 10 jobs in 3 years, or some combination thereof. What we DO get are tons of Hmong, Somali, Vietnamese and Hispanic applicants, who have solid work histories and are reliable and punctual, and have clean criminal histories. In my six plus years we found precisely three illegal workers, all of whom had false documentation that looked real. All were dismissed and INS notified immediately on discovery. It's certainly possible we have illegal immigrants here who have better counterfeited documents or have not been found yet, but obviously not to our knowledge or complicit acceptance. We run checks on everyone from assemblers to VPs. But for the lower paid jobs we cannot find reliable and competent native workers for the most part.
Now MN is one of the lowest unemployment states and has one of the highest educated workforces and intuitively enough one of the highest per capita incomes despite our moderate cost of living. It's possible that in other states with less sunny economic climates this is not true, but it's what I see. I can post a pic of our work floor any time you like. I can send you job descriptions showing what we look for and payscales showing the rates per job grade (all freely available here of course so no secrets or personal info). You'll see precious few people who grew up in the US or speak English as a native tongue. Trust me it's not because we wnat it that way - we'll take the best skilled and most capable workers we can get like any for-profit enterprise. Just so happens most of them at the entry level (and a growing number not - we have two MEs, two design engineers, one technician, one software developer, two supervisors and an HR generalist) were born in Laos.
Now MN is one of the lowest unemployment states and has one of the highest educated workforces and intuitively enough one of the highest per capita incomes despite our moderate cost of living. It's possible that in other states with less sunny economic climates this is not true, but it's what I see. I can post a pic of our work floor any time you like. I can send you job descriptions showing what we look for and payscales showing the rates per job grade (all freely available here of course so no secrets or personal info). You'll see precious few people who grew up in the US or speak English as a native tongue. Trust me it's not because we wnat it that way - we'll take the best skilled and most capable workers we can get like any for-profit enterprise. Just so happens most of them at the entry level (and a growing number not - we have two MEs, two design engineers, one technician, one software developer, two supervisors and an HR generalist) were born in Laos.
Lone_Gunman
Member
Does that make anyone else want to puke when you hear that?
Do we get stronger when that immigrant has 2 or 3 kids, who are now full fledged citizens, who discover its easier to draw welfare than do the work their father did?
"Sorry MadMag but that's reality. I speak not theoretically but from experience".
I don't even need to go past this statement. Did I say theoretically? I clearly said real experience of a job that one of my sons just started.
The reality is that you are about 99% wrong.
I don't even need to go past this statement. Did I say theoretically? I clearly said real experience of a job that one of my sons just started.
The reality is that you are about 99% wrong.
And that's the sum total of your pro unrestricted illegal immigration argument-that it's good for the bottom line. And has been pointed out before, America is about a lot more than increasing the bottom line, or how many filet mignons you can stuff into your mouth, or how many new pickup trucks you can buy, etc., et yada.
But when your world view is limited to bottom line considerations, I guess anything and everything else is irrelevant.
Jammer Six
member
Absolutely.
Anyone around here the descendant of an immigrant?
If so, how much welfare do you draw?
Me. I'm first generation; my father immigrated here legally, became an American with no allegiance to the country he left, served this country during WWII, started and ran his own business, paid taxes all his life, etc. Never asked for or collected welfare.
If you'll re-read the OP, the subject is unrestricted illegal immigration. You're attempting to equate regulated and legal immigration with border jumping for the purpose of getting freebies and earning under the table money to send back to Mexico.
Because our politicians have conditioned us against it.
The current proposals (like the FairTax abortion) are widely mined with FUD by our officials, and they are worthless to boot even if passed. They are the basis for a new 20,000 page tax code with all their kickbacks and complexity.
Also, for some reason people think it totally unfair that certain items sold at retail (food, services, etc) be taxed at all. People act as if the current system doesn't require them to feed the kids of others (in other countries even, much less illegals here) before feeding their own.
A truly fair tax would be, say, 0.4% -1%(max) of State gross consumer receipts, collected by the States and forwarded to the government. Everybody pays whenever they buy anything, and everybody takes all their pay home, period. Even at 1% (because gross receipts in the usa is such a staggering amount) the government is awash in money. Of course, it's not enough for unlimited Empire. That's before everybody gets a 20% to 40% take home "raise", and spends accordingly. Government wants more income? Grow the pie instead of cutting off more and bigger slices.
Do that, and everybody will pay their "fair share".
308win
Member
jammer six said:
Ah yes. When the facts and the emperical evidence don't fit your argument hide in annecdotal arguments. After all annecdotal arguments support whatever is your point of view and can't be refuted factually.
Just the other day my next door neighbor was telling me about a contractor on a job he was on looking for his immigrant crew and finding them all asleep in the new cabinets another crew had just installed.
longeyes
member
The trouble is, a lot of what passes for "education" in America today is mental masturbation, just make-work for overpriced academics. Want to learn about business? You don't need a B.A. or MBA. Work in business. Better, start a business. You can learn the accounting part on your own in a weekend--or hire one.
This country has too many MBAs and too many lawyers and too many "marketing" people. Just my opinion.
dmallind
Member
Based on what? one anecdote about your kid? You accuse me of being wrong when we're both swapping anecdotes, just me about 250 people and you about 1. You ORIGINALLY accused ME of posting a fallacy. The quote from me is in response to that and makes no implication either way about whther YOU were speaking from experience or not. How could you read it that way? But my anecode is not theoretical, a fallacy or 99% wrong either. We get hardly any native English speakers applying for cushy jobs at that rate. If I were 99% wrong the unemployment rate would be very different and illegals wouldn't be able to find work would they - everybody like your son would be taking the lower paying jobs.
Before you misconstrue THIS post let me say I have no doubt you are telling the truth - your son surely is doing hard work for $9 an hour. Around here trust ME to be telling the truth instead of extrapolating from one datum and say that he could have his pick of far easier $9 an hour jobs provided, as I'm guessing is the case, he can read and show up every day. I wish there were more like him here believe me, as it would make writing procedures and conducting training far easier.
This is the widest angle shot I could get with our cheap and dirty departmental camera and have the races of the particpants visible. The white guy in the foreground is an Industrial engineer. The black guy after him is a Somali immigrant and a supervisor. All the other employees doing the $8.95 (that's to start for 6 mos only BTW - average is 10.50-11 for grade 1) jobs are Hmong.
dmallind
Wow, are you off base. You are telling me about experience with Mexican workers. I spent 38 years working in industry and most all of my time was spent in our Mexico operations. You show one picture…for what reason? I have hundreds of similar photos. In fact, I our company was the 2nd largest employer in Juarez. I lived in El Paso. I worked in Juarez and in our Torreon plant. So, don’t try to tell me about experience.
Now, we had very good Mexican workers. As an engineer I trained many Mexican engineers to work in our factories. In fact, they usually replaced Americans. The point is not are they good workers, the point is that illegal aliens do not pay taxes and support of our system. It costs Americans more…not less….to have illegal aliens working in the USA.
Now I see the problem....you are young and not experienced. This happens when you are new in industry and think that what you are seeing is some kind of new revelation. Been there once myself!
Not that it matters, but you are wrong again. I was not the one that posted anything about the fallacy statement.
Just to add: I think when you said 250 to 1 you are talking about the number of employees at your plant. We had about 13000 in the Juarez plants not counting Torreon, USA, & Europe.
Wow, are you off base. You are telling me about experience with Mexican workers. I spent 38 years working in industry and most all of my time was spent in our Mexico operations. You show one picture…for what reason? I have hundreds of similar photos. In fact, I our company was the 2nd largest employer in Juarez. I lived in El Paso. I worked in Juarez and in our Torreon plant. So, don’t try to tell me about experience.
Now, we had very good Mexican workers. As an engineer I trained many Mexican engineers to work in our factories. In fact, they usually replaced Americans. The point is not are they good workers, the point is that illegal aliens do not pay taxes and support of our system. It costs Americans more…not less….to have illegal aliens working in the USA.
Now I see the problem....you are young and not experienced. This happens when you are new in industry and think that what you are seeing is some kind of new revelation. Been there once myself!
Not that it matters, but you are wrong again. I was not the one that posted anything about the fallacy statement.
Just to add: I think when you said 250 to 1 you are talking about the number of employees at your plant. We had about 13000 in the Juarez plants not counting Torreon, USA, & Europe.
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Jammer Six
member
Yup.
And if an immigrant has children here, whether that immigrant is legal or illegal, those children can do exactly those same things. Perfectly legally.
Just like you.
We get stronger every time an immigrant crosses the border. We get stronger with every generation.
longeyes
member
You ignore one salient issue: ASSIMILATION. Or, rather, the lack of it. This is the legacy of the multicultural mania of the last forty years.
Mexicans seem to want to stay Mexicans--in the U.S. Or tell me that the Mexican flags and Aztlan propaganda and statements by La Raza mean nothing.
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