Whereas the only people I know with PSAs reside on this forum. Course I don't know anyone with a Saint either..
Perhaps I am sheltered..
Opinions for new AR
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Whereas the only people I know with PSAs reside on this forum. Course I don't know anyone with a Saint either..
Perhaps I am sheltered..
hoardingthemanual
Member
I don’t know any PSA owners either. I saw someone in the wild picking theirs up from the LGS. As close a contact as I’ve had.
C-grunt
Member
Where are these torture tests?
I would say that Henderson Defense in Las Vegas does a pretty good job of torture testing all kinds of weapons to include PSA AR rifles and PSA uppers. They run the big machine gun rental in Las Vegas. Here is a long thread about high round counts on AR rifles. https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/H...ow-they-have-handled-on-our-range/118-677135/
Sgt_Mike1
Member
This right here has probably increased AR ownership more than anything than what the makers could have ever done via marketing or what ever. I know a lot of current AR owners that prior to that had absolutely no interest in the AR format, but after owning them they are like wow it's pretty cool a Lego rifle.
Capybara
Member
Every been on YouTube? Quite a few on there.
Quote from the Henderson Defense write up that 12Bravo20 linked us to...
"As for FN barrels, I just recently purchased twenty of the complete PSA 12.5" and 10.5" uppers to test them out. So far they have functioned properly like the Daniel Defense and LMT's and have had zero issues." You read a lot of comments like this and see them in the torture test videos. PSA makes some decent stuff. Not the best available but definitely a very good value.
A few years back, PSA had some teething issues with QC with canted sights and a few other things that were legitimate issues. From what I have seen and experienced, they fixed these QC issues and moved on. None of my PSA rifles have ever broken, malfunctioned or had any defects. Very impressive considering the cost. They regularly sell blem M4 rifle kits for $349 on sale. Add in a $50 lower and you have a decent $400 AR. I've recommended them to several friends and relatives and so far, everyone is pretty happy with their economy ARs.
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Capybara
Member
Whereas the only people I know with PSAs reside on this forum. Course I don't know anyone with a Saint either..
Perhaps I am sheltered..
You are. I know at least a dozen people of the gun, guys and gals, that have built multiple PSA ARs. A few of them have relatively high dollar ARs too and a couple have remarked to me, "I wish I would have known that I didn't need to spend $2k to get a decent AR."
Capybara
Member
A lot of it is status symbolism. High end ARs are cool and badass. Nothing wrong with buying one if you have the money and want to spend it. But for the average American who should own a modern musket, possibly their only one,
absolutely nothing wrong with a PSA/M&P 15/Ruger type AR either.
Styx
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I honestly didn't even know what an AR15 was prior to Sandy Hook. I still wasn't into AR15s after that, but got into AKs because they were a lot cheaper than AR15s back then. AKs were around $400 or so for a Zestava, Wasrs, Saigas, etc... PSA wasn't really a big thing then, there wasn't a lot of AR manufacturers, so ARs were around or over $1k. Nowadays AKs are over $1k thanks to Obama and Trump import bans and ARs are dirt cheap. I credit PSA inexpensive kits for getting me into AR15s. I could buy a kit minus the strip lower for around $300, get a lower for $35 or so, and have a fully functional rifle/pistol. The deals were so good then that it was hard to not keep buying more.
I owned a couple of handguns and had my carry permit, but I didn't own any rifles. Heck, I also didn't know what a "22lr" was and why everyone was making a big fuss over it, but I started buying and hoarding 22lr from Wally World whenever I caught some in stock lol... I didn't want to not have it and later want it.
C-grunt
Member
Ive been on Youtube once or twice. Never seen a torture test where a PSA outperformed a Daniel Defense.
The Battlefield Vegas thread on AR15.com the owner said that Colt BCGs last the longest and he recently switched to all PSA and Del Ton uppers because it was more econimical to just change the whole upper than swap a barrel like they used to.
Im a big fan of PSA. I own several of their products and they are my go to for lowers. But that doesnt change the fact that other rifles have better parts made of better materials. Does everyone need a hammer forged barrel and a super stiff rail that will hold zero on a laser after a Halo jump? No. But saying the extra cost is just because of brand name is wrong.
Styx
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I reckon the AR5.com (ARFcom) forum types who are snobs look down on PSA and other inexpensive rifles. I could see them purchasing a Saint, Colt, or high-end rifle before they purchase a PSA. They are typically more particular about performance, accuracy, and their firearms being military grade and/or actual being used by the military. I saw some members here claim that $500-$700 AR15 are the same and the higher end are status symbols, but that's not necessarily the whole story. The Saint, Colt, and other higher end ARs all have Cold Hammer Forged (CHF) and in many cases, chrome lined barrels which will last and stand up to sustained fire longer than and standard PSA, S&W, or any other budget AR15 barrel. They claim from personal experience that they higher-end barrels are more accurate as well, but I wouldn't know..
I don't know about S&W or Ruger, but PSA gas blocks aren't staked or dimpled, like the higher-end ARs are which also adds cost. Then a lot of these budget ARs have Metal Injection Molded (MIM) parts kits and components whereas the others used forged parts kits. Then the fit and finish is also better, and they have more features. The beautique $2k or so AR15s are typically have proprietary piston gas systems which run cooler and cleaner, quick detachable barrels, are ambitious, have adjustable gas blocks, and/or have a plothera of other features, upgrades, and proprietary parts.
The guys who are snobs and who will spend $2k on an AR typically will shoot thousands of rounds per year through them. PSA, Ruger, S&W, and other budget AR owners aren't really training with, running hard, or are putting a lot of rounds through their ARs consistently.
As far as the sales of the Springfield Saint goes vs PSA, many have to realize that the Saint is sold online AND in thousands of LGS all across the U.S. whereas PSA rifles are only available online. I'd say that that the majority of gun owners never purchased a firearm online or even know the process. Others REFUSE to buy any firearm online because they are hell bent on supporting their LGS. Then there's those who won't buy online because they want to be able to see, inspect, and handpick the firearm they want to buy before they plop down their hard earned cash. I reckon, and I'm pulling this number out of thin air, it's a less than 1/4 gun owners of who are repeatedly puchusing and hoarding ARs are the majority of PSA's customers.
For 1st world self defense and casual range shooters, PSA and S&W ARs will be fine. For competition, target shooting, for those who run their ARs hard, and for go to war sustained fire, a PSA AR isn't going to cut it IMHO. With that said and including myself, the overwhelming number of gun owners do need or require a higher end more robust AR. I don't buy higher-end because I can buy military overrun CHF chrome lined barrel for under $200, a forged LPK ($40), larue mbt-2s trigger ($80), Superlative Arms adjustable gas block ($90), Toolcraft BCG ($80), a Radian, BCM, or Geissele charging handle ($80), and an AERO M4E1 upper and lower ($160), Sprinco buffer spring ($20), and have a better go to war rifle for little more than a S&W and Ruger AR.
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InTheSwamp
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Just as PSA, made by FNH.
Styx
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I doubt a PSA outperformed a DD, but if it did or came close, the PSA AR more than likely had an FN manufactured barrel on it which PSA sells on their higher-end and more expensive ARs.
Styx
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Yes, PSA offers uppers with FN barrels, but that's not the bulk of what they sell or what others are buying. The FN uppers tend to have a good reputation even with AR snobs.
The FN barreled premium uppers are a pretty good deal for the money.
My 14.7" was $400, the barrel alone was $285 when they were available, comparable handguard are around $200.
I believe Midwest Industries makes the handguard, they have a 14.7" with a Geissele for a bit more. Out of stock for both though.
I used it on an Anderson lower with some stuff.
Didn't spend a lot but still wound up spending a lot..
My 14.7" was $400, the barrel alone was $285 when they were available, comparable handguard are around $200.
I believe Midwest Industries makes the handguard, they have a 14.7" with a Geissele for a bit more. Out of stock for both though.
I used it on an Anderson lower with some stuff.
Didn't spend a lot but still wound up spending a lot..
InTheSwamp
Member
The FN barrels have had a good reputation for the last 100+ years, two World Wars included.
Whether the bulk of the PSA buyers are getting it or not, does not speak about the quality of their rifles...dollar for dollar, no one offers a better deal, CHF or not.
Styx
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True, but some were claiming that the PSA and S&W manufactured ARs and barrels are equal to Colt, FN, higher-end barrels and components. They are not. The barrels aren’t going to last as long or be able to sustain a high rate of fire as long. I would not know, but they also claim FN, Colt, and other barrels are more accurate and group better. That matters to some people who actually use their rifles or want peice of mind. Others want the same grade or better than what's being used by the military. There are people on dedicated AR forums who actually shoot enough to have worn out multple firing pins, bolts, gas rings, and barrels, so for obvious reasons they tend to be more snobbish and require more than what's needed for the majority of other gun owners including myself.
Military contract overrun SOCOM barrels that are being sold to civilians or PSA FN uppers are a great deal. I have nothing against PSA budget ARs, and as I mentioned, I've purchased a few pistols and rifle kits. It's just that if there was a WW3 or the like, they wouldn't be my first choice for my sole primary rifle to defend myself with. I PSA will be all I'd likely would ever need, but if I can have better for not much more, why not? That's how I look at it.
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I guess I read it differently than you. He started out by stating dont buy the cheapest parts, as they were not worth the savings. somewhere around the middle of the thread the bolts were lasting on par with other AR's on the line, then towards the end he switched to PSA disposable uppers as it was more cost effective.
While he mentioned the Higher end guns he never really comment on them except for your more expensive rails holding up. Never really answered the questions about LMT enhanced Bolts.
Reading through the entire thread. My take a ways are.
- spare bolts, spare bolts and more spare bolts.
- gen 3 or older Glocks only
- My 10.5" AR will destroy itself eventually
- 10 yrd range so accuracy isnt a requirement. Barrel has to be really FUBAR to keyhole at that range.
- Should have never gave my brother my AUG.
- SCAR will be my next piston gun.
I know plenty of people with Spikes, Anderson, Aero, etc. just none with PSA’s. Not that hard to fathom. Heck I own a Anderson lower with a cheap-o upper that I don’t recall the maker. (Possibly from Model1 which I am not even sure they exist anymore.) It goes bang. But that’s all I will say about it.
hoardingthemanual
Member
Primary Arms sent me an email saying they’re selling $400 AR’s. Limit 3. Time to fill the safe.
The point I was trying to make is that those rifles at Henderson see way more rounds fired on full auto than what most civilians will ever shoot in a life time. And the PSA uppers hold up pretty well to that kind of abuse.
Capybara
Member
We are in agreement. I don't think premium ARs are the exact same thing as a PSA or Smith & Wesson, they are usually built better with higher quality components and tighter tolerances. I just find though that most of the guys who only buy high end ARs, that's their thing, they
are really into ARs and shoot them a ton and modify and tweak them constantly. They likely have an ACOG or Eotech or other higher end optic, magnifier, etc. Guys like that are never going to settle for a PSA and that's all good.
I'm speaking more to those of us who are into other types of guns like C&Rs, or precision long range or shotgunning and our ARs are just a sideline thing OR the people who are just dipping their toe in and want their first AR to see what the hype is about. I love my ARs, but I'm not an operator type. I built one with a relatively powerful scope, and even has the older 1:9 twist rate because I want to see how far I can push my 55gr reloads. Then I have a ready for action minimal build with irons and an Aimpoint Pro. Then I just built an A2 profile AR just because they are so cool and I've never owned a fixed stock, 20" barrel AR. And I have an AR pistol. Two of them are "nicer" brands and two are PSA kits. I'm really impressed with how good the PSAs are.
I've shot Daniels Defense, Colt, BCM, LMT, KAC and several other high end ARs and they are really nice. I just find for me, the value equation isn't good, it feels as if paying $2k to $3k for an AR just isn't a good buy when my PSAs are fine for what I want to do with them, which is mainly to have them around as my modern muskets. But to those who spend many thousands on high-end ARs, more power to them, variety is the spice of life, but I find in shooting them, my PSAs don't shoot any worse than something that costs 4-5x as much. Maybe I'm just not at the point where my AR judgement/discernment is good enough? Totally possible, I don't shoot my ARs all of the time, just once in a while because I have so many other types of guns I like shooting.
Styx
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$1k-$1.2k now.
