Opinions Wanted: 1911 Gunsmiths

[Snake Eyes]

I have 3 Colt 1991A1 Compact Models that I bought to have identically customized. I intend to play IDPA with one, carry one, and have one for a spare.

I want to have a quality smith do the work, but this is turning out to be very difficult for me--I can't seem to make myself comfortable enough with any one person to turn my guns over to them.

I had just about decided on "The Gunsmith, Inc."--Nelson Ford in Phoenix (close to home) when a guy showed up at IDPA with a Springfield that Ford had just finished working on. This poor guy couldn't get through a mag without a failure.

So, who would y'all trust your babies to?

For reference, here's what I'm thinking about having done (feel free to offer your opinions about this too--like you wouldn't!):

-New match grade barrel
-New tuned bushing
-New tuned extractor
-New single piece FLGR
-Basic "reliability" package
-New beaver tail
-New extended safety
-New skeletonized hammer
-Checker Frontstrap
-Complete dehorn, deburr, melt job
-Night Sights (brand??? Dang those Novaks are spendy!)
-New finish (parkerized??)

So, I figure when I get done I'll have three $1000 guns worth $1000--total. I hope I like 'em!

 

[John Forsyth]

I see you are in AZ. Check out, Don Williams, Ted Yost, and Chuck Rogers. Also, check out www.1911Forum.com , and ask the same question in the gunsmithing section.

 

[CWL]

3 guns? Good gunsmith? Good luck!

It'll take you close to 6 years (or more) to get all three back together since most good smiths are backed-up at least 18 months. Most will take over 2 years per gun.

I don't understand your last sentence about 3 $1000 guns worth $1000 total, did you leave out an extra '0'?

 

[Cawdor]

For action work, try Teddy Jacobson. I don't think that he does checkering, melt jobs, or refinishing.

 

[Sean Smith]

Snake Eyes,

Dude, you are in Arizona. That place is like pistolsmith nirvana. Don Williams, Ted Yost, and Chuck Rogers all all fabulous 'smiths and they are all in Arizona.

CWL, you are badly mis-informed on timeframes. Those multi-year timeframes you hear quoted are for full-house guns built from scratch... they don't reflect timeframes for lesser degrees of work, which tend to be WAY shorter. My total wait for Ted Yost to finish my Delta Elite with a comparable feature set to what this guy is asking for will be around 6 months. I think even Ted's full-house guns are done in under a year, and he is expanding his shop to make his lead times even shorter. I think Don's and Chuck's timeframes are around the same... AndABeer can comment on Don's lead times since he just started 2 projects with him. Yeah, if you ask for a handbuilt from scratch gun from Dane Burns, it will take you a couple of years, but even he does the little stuff in semi-reasonable times... he finished work on another Delta Elite started by somebody else in like 4 months.

 

[Sean Smith]

-New match grade barrel

For bang-for-the-buck it is hard to beat a Kart or standard Schuemann. If you want the best, you might be looking at a Schuemann AET.

http://www.geocities.com/mr_motorhead/10tech.html#AET

-New beaver tail

Smith & Alexander looks best on a Colt IMHO.

-New extended safety

Ed Brown, Ed Brown or Ed Brown.

-Night Sights (brand??? Dang those Novaks are spendy!)

All good night sights are spendy. Heinies are better IMHO... better sight picture and tougher steel.

-New finish (parkerized??)

Parkerizing, frankly, sucks. If it has to be black, use one of the modern polymer finishes like Black-T, Roguard, Bearcoat, etc. instead. But if it doesn't need to be black, NP3 or Hard Chrome are much better performing finishes.

 

[mec]

Your list of mods sounds a lot like some of the packages by Alex Hamilton at Tenring Precision
www.tenring.com

he's been doing 1911 mods since 1968 and really knows what it's about. A search of thefiringline if it's still up-or this site, should pull up some rave reviews.

 

[CWL]

I would agree with you if it were only a reliability/trigger job with a few parts added-on.

I'm seeing full custom rebuilds from owner supplied base-gun -with new fitted barrel/bushing, parts, action work, checkering, meltdown (by hand with a file and not a grinding wheel) followed by refinishing.

Snake Eyes did state he wanted a quality smith didn't he? The smiths that come to mind fall into this timeframe.

The wait isn't just for the actual work to be physically done, it's to wait out every other gun in front of yours. -So on second thought, once you have made it through the wait for one gun, all three should be be up for work in a row, so you might shave off a few years, but it'll still be a long wait.

 

[Old Fuff]

Be aware that most "match barrels" have tight chambers. This to some degree increases accuracy, but if they are not kept clean you may have problems with "failure to go into battery." The specifications for match barrels were originally set up for - would you believe it - match guns. My match/target guns have match barrels. My carry guns don't.

A full length guide rod is another gadget you may do without. If you like them fine, but they accomplish very little. Match shooters sometimes like the extra weight toward the muzzle. On a carry gun it's just something extra to carry around.

I'd also think about changing out the hammer(s). Exactly what's wrong with the one(s) you have? What you are really buying is a "cool" look, and that's not a functional requirement.

Otherwise you seem to have you're head screwed on right. Good luck with your project.

 

[mec]

Some pistol smiths can save you money on the barrel situation. This is a standard Springfield Armory barrel-nothing special in the chambering department that was fitted with a match bushing by Ten Ring.

Hamilton felt like it would work very well but would fall back on a Kart if necessary. It does very well with ball loads and with target type handloads produced groups like this:

 

[agtman]

A number of excellent 'smiths have already been mentioned, but my recommendation would be Victor Tibbets. A very talented, very experienced 'smith - and one heck of a nice guy to deal with. My opinion, but stylistically speaking, Vic has no equal. You can see a variety of his 1911 work here:

http://www.classichandguns.com

I'm very satisfied with his work on my Delta Elite, from the installation of the Bar-Sto barrel and custom parts to its performance and handling with a variety of 10mm ammo. As some of the work mentioned by Snake Eyes was also done on my Delta, here's my review of the returned pistol, along with specs and pictures:

http://bren-ten.com/agtman-delta/id2.html

A Range Report on its performance and accuracy is here:

http://bren-ten.com/agtman-delta/id3.html

A few "teasers" of my Tibbets Custom DE - a/k/a the "Xtreme Operator" model :

By the way, there's nothing wrong with parkerizing, if that's what you really want. (Aren't there enough pretty boyz running around with poseur chrome guns? ).

Vic's finish on this Delta is a special combination of parkerizing followed by a final application of semi-gloss black guncote. Not really a typical matte finish and not just nonreflective, but more like light-absorbing.

I've advised Vic to keep it simple and just call it "tactical black."

HTH.

 

[mec]

That is a neat pistol, a high recommendation and an outstanding article

 

[10-Ring]

Finding th right smith is tough! There really is an audition process that you go through. I would ask around and find samples of guns your prospects have done. I found a smith almost by accident. I started going to the range and just stumbled across a guy who just couldn't stop talking about how nice his new 1911 was and how good a job the smith did. Most smiths can mke them look good, some can make them shoot good, few can make them look & shoot good
Good luck on your quest.

 

[Sean Smith]

CWL,

I'm not interested in getting into a pissing contest with you, but it is clear you have no idea what you are talking about. I have first hand experience with the degree of work this guy wants done, and had it done by major pistolsmiths (Ted Yost and Dane Burns), and it didn't take 18 months, let along the 6 year figure you pulled out of your butt. For a handmade Heinie, sure, you'll wait forever. But that's not what this guy is asking for, and if you can't tell the difference between this guy's workup and a full-on custom job, well, that kind of says it all.

Just to reapeat: Ted Yost is doing a comparable job for me that, in all, will have taken (roughly speaking) 6 months from start to finish. It might be a bit more or less time now, but Ted Yost is not some second-string chump, and if you don't know that... again, it is just another sign you shouldn't be commenting on the subject. AndABeer is having some really extensive work done by Don Williams (The Action Works, again not a second-stringer) that is in the same ballpark time-wise...6-9 months IIRC. agtman's heavily customized Delta Elite by Vic Tibbets took... 9 months. And again, Vic Tibbets is a "real deal" pistolsmith, not some corner dremel jockey. But you obviously know better than the folks who actually had the custom work done on their guns.



That's first-hand experience with professional pistolsmiths, not uninformed speculation. Your idea of time factors is just hopelessly out of touch with reality of 90% of the pistolsmiths worthy of serious consideration.

Again, this isn't meant as a personal flame. But you are spreading bad info.

 

[SunBear]

Wayne Novak, yes he of the Novaksight!! Anti-handgun=Pro-rape.

 

[nextjoe]

He hasn't actually done any work for me yet, but I'm going to be sending a stainless Series 70 to Ned Christiansen a few months down the road. I emailed Ned on a Sunday night describing the work I had in mind, and at 9 AM Monday morning he was on the phone with me to discuss it. He was very helpful in talking about various options and offered to sit down with me in his shop and go through every part of the gun in detail.

I've seen a lot of his work, he has an excellent reputation, and I was blown away by how helpful and prompt he was. Most gunsmiths I know avoid the phone like the Black Death. I feel confident he'll make me a happy customer.

His current backlog for smallish jobs is 8 or 9 months. www.m-guns.com

In case anyone's curious, the basic plan is:

Colt stainless Series 70
C&S chamfered M-Corps hammer, sear, disconnector
Casull or BCP trigger
Heinie straight eights
C&S spring steel extractors, one in the gun and one spare
Ed Brown or C&S extended thumb safety
possibly a new barrel and/or bushing
possible hard chrome

Best,
Joe

 

[John Forsyth]

Sean and I have butted heads a few times, but I am with him 110% on this. The big names need filler work to keep the lights on and to buy groceries. I have seen Heinie, yes Richard Heinie, fix a Colt .38Super slide for me in two weeks. That's ship to him, he fixed it, refinished it, and sent it back, in under two weeks.

If you want a complete new custom pistol, expect to wait, about a year, some more, some less.. But if you already have a complete pistol and want some basic work go for it. You can get a lot done in 6 monthes or less.

Piece meal pistolsmithing can be done in very short time. I only work with men who have built and maintain good reputations. Shiipping by FedEx both ways is only $50, so why go with inexperience?

 

[Jeff OTMG]

For an action job or replacing and fitting the action parts I have not seen anybody better than Teddy Jacobson, but Teddy does not do gunsmithing work, only action jobs. You could send the frames for checkering to a guy in the northeast that Teddy uses, he does some nice machine cut checkering. For refinishing, both Checkmate and Accurate Plating and Weaponry, both in Florida, do excellent work. In fact, due to the restrictions by the EPA on the chemicals used, many of the known smiths and gun companies use one of these refinishers. For general gunsmithing Alex Hamilton is hard to beat, the guy is a former president of the American Pistolsmiths Guild.

 

[mec]

"I don't understand your last sentence about 3 $1000 guns worth $1000 total, did you leave out an extra '0'?"

CWL. Not only has Snake-eyes put a lot of thought into what he wants but he is also a realist. A 1911 made up pretty much from scratch by a top custom maker and carrying his signature or mark can gain in value.- but when most of us get gunsmith work done to enhance the pistol, there is no way in heck we'll ever get out money back out of it.

I believe that SE will enjoy his three pistols enough that the economic realities will not be all that important to him.

 

[mec]

__________________
"As if 6/1/2003 I have a company, BAM-BAM Distributing L.L.C., that is the master distributor of RBCD Platinum Plus ammunition for Indiana, Oklahoma, Kansas, Arizona, Nevada, and Utah. I have a financial interest in RBCD ammo sales in those states. Only fair to let everyone know since I have been a supporter of this ammo on this forum."

Jeff, we checked out some of this in a 9mm SIG 239 -very consistent with the advertising material. Of particular interest, was that the ammo was well constituted and stayed together after several trips through the magazine. Some of the specialty ammunition with light weigh bullets tend toward pulled bullets if subjected to a bit of loading and unloading - not the case with RCBD

Also found it totally reliable in this pistol

And you are exactly right about Hamilton and the other guild pistolsmiths. They work very closely together. Hamilton may tap into Bowens expertise on one job and send his projects to Turnbull for finish on another. He also runs some of his projects through some of the best engravers in the business.