Options for fixing case bulging?
- Thread starter SKILCZ
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What's the caliber? If that is from a Lee-Enfield, the larger chamber is by design to work with virtually any ammo and wartime production was aimed more at ensuring firearms that went bang rather than match type rifles. Brass life is and was not a consideration as the military does not generally reload ammo. If the rifle is accurate, then my advice from playing around with milsurps in varying conditions, is to let it be and simply work around its shortcomings.
One expensive option is to rebarrel the firearm, a second is to simply set aside new brass for that firearm and only neck size it (depending on the degree of deformity, you may even need to fireform cases first), another is simply to use the cheapest rounds and recognize short brass life, the probably least desirable would be to ream the chamber to a larger size and use a wildcat round (if one doesn't already exist. The last option has probably been done quite often for the Lee-Enfield .303 so you might find something on either Australian or Canadian websites.
One expensive option is to rebarrel the firearm, a second is to simply set aside new brass for that firearm and only neck size it (depending on the degree of deformity, you may even need to fireform cases first), another is simply to use the cheapest rounds and recognize short brass life, the probably least desirable would be to ream the chamber to a larger size and use a wildcat round (if one doesn't already exist. The last option has probably been done quite often for the Lee-Enfield .303 so you might find something on either Australian or Canadian websites.
Forgot to mention, your firearm could be generous on headspace which can also cause case stretching especially in a rimless case which I gather that your's is rimmed (I could be mistaken from the pix though). If you want to continue to fire reloads, then either rebarrel, rechamber to a wildcat that fits your bore size, neck size--buy a case extractor--and check cases after firing using a sharp tipped hooked pick of some sort. The pick is used inside the case to determine whether a crease exists internally in the case that is a forthcoming case separation candidate. One last possibility, that came to me, might use steel cased ammo if available--it will stretch less and is cheaper but not reloadable.
It's .30-40 Krag factory Remington Core-Lokt soft point 180 gr ammo. I just want to make sure it's not going to explode in the shooter's face. Is the case bulge not necessarily a bad thing in these old rifles? Reloading is not something on the radar at the moment, just shooting factory ammo occasionally.
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243winxb
Member
Case stretching from excessive chamber head space , in this area is not dangerous, when compared to a head separation near the rim. But the front of the case may be left in the chamber.
But is the line caused by a ring in the chamber, and not stretching??
Have a gunsmith check headspace, or keep shooting factory new ammo.
But is the line caused by a ring in the chamber, and not stretching??
Have a gunsmith check headspace, or keep shooting factory new ammo.
I've never seen cases stretch in that area from excessive headspace and I don't really see how excessive headspace could cause this mark on the case, to me it looks more like there is a problem in the chamber. I'd have somebody check the chamber with a bore scope.
Just a guess but I would say that ring is imprinting on the case when fired. And then there is head space; the rim and belt case has been with us for 100+ years. In the beginning the rim and belt of a case was designed to hold the case to the rear. In the beginning they were not concerned with what happened ahead of the rim and or belt.. the plan was to seal the chamber with the case body. Years after reloaders claimed the shoulder of the case moved forward and with that the design went out the window.
If I fire a case in a long chamber with a case that is short from the shoulder to the case head the shoulder of the case does not move. BUT; if it does there is nothing I can do about case head separation and there is no way I can guarantee where the case separates. There are a few chambers that leave artifacts from the old chamber when the reloaders makes attempts to modify the old chamber. When going from 308 W to 30/06 the 308 W case body/shoulder juncture of the 308 W chamber is not cleaned up by the 30/06 reamer. And then there is going to 280 Remington from 7mm57. The necks are thought to be the same diameter but the 7mm57 has a generous neck, meaning the new chamber neck can have two different neck diameters after reaming.
And then we got into another chamber conversion, same thing. One barrel started out with a larger diameter neck and the other started with a shorter chamber with a larger diameter neck.
The 2 cases appear to have different length from the shoulder to the case head and if the diameter of the case body is larger in diameter after firing I would think someone made an attempt to improve the chamber. One of the best things that ever happened to a 30/40 Craig is Ackley and a man named Epps. I would not suggest using the Crag for the Epps or Ackley improved but going to the Epps and of Ackley is a big improvement and the reamer will clean up the chamber; except for the shoulder unless the chamber is moved forward or the barrel is shortened enough to clean up the shoulder.
F. Guffey
I took it to a local smith who took a quick look at it. He did not do any formal measurements of head space that I saw. He used a bore light, looked at the chamber, and confirmed it's .30-40 Krag (not sure how he knew for sure w/o measuring head space). He test fired it with very old ammo, looked at the case, and said it was case bulging and that he wouldn't use the gun. He suggested going to another smith who could ream it out and suggested a guy. I found it hard to find a smith in my area with any decent volume of online reviews. The other smith he recommended isn't even listed as a smith on the internet. Before irreversibly modifying the gun, I wanted to tap into the knowledge base here and see if that sounds right. There are other smiths in my area, but they have spotty reviews online. If you have any suggestions for how to find a reputable gunsmith for a 100+ y/o rifle, I'd appreciate it.
I took another picture. The top is the spent case from decades old Remington Core-Lokt 180 gr soft point (just fired). The middle is an unfired round from the same box. The bottom is a new round of the same ammo (Remington 180 gr soft point Core-Lokt) bought in 2016. Noticed there are two rings with basically a cylindrical bulge in between.
I took another picture. The top is the spent case from decades old Remington Core-Lokt 180 gr soft point (just fired). The middle is an unfired round from the same box. The bottom is a new round of the same ammo (Remington 180 gr soft point Core-Lokt) bought in 2016. Noticed there are two rings with basically a cylindrical bulge in between.
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243winxb
Member
After seeing your last photo, make the rifle a wall hanger. View attachment 227200
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Skilcz, do you have micrometers or dial calipers? I suggest you measure the fired case to determine if the diameter of the fired case is larger ahead of the artifact than behind, put another way, does the 'bulge' feel like a step down?
The smith with the scope should have been able to determine if someone ran a short reamer into the chamber.
F. Guffey
The smith with the scope should have been able to determine if someone ran a short reamer into the chamber.
F. Guffey
I don't have a micrometer or dial calipers, but maybe it's time to invest in some. Do you have a recommendation for which one to get? This set of calipers seems to have good reviews.
I'll feel the case later and let you know.
So it looks dangerous and unfixable?
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Merry Christmas, everyone!
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243winxb
Member
Hard to diagnose online . Measuring the fired brass and comparing to SAAMI chamber drawing may help. But a gunsmith needs to check headspace with gauges.
Firing only factory new ammo ,in an oversize chamber, can expand/stretch , up to a point. The brass will fire form to the chamber. To much stretching and you get a separation. Safety is nothing to guess at.
Photo of factory ammo fired in a old military rifle that has excessive headspace. Very dangerous.
243winxb
Member
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/381683/ptg-headspace-no-go-gauge-30-40-krag A gunsmith would check headspace with gauges like these 3.
Jim Watson
Member
"Headspace" for a rimmed round is the distance between the breech face and the stop surface for the rim. Usually just a smidgen more than rim thickness to allow for manufacturing tolerances on gun and ammo and a little dirt in a military weapon.
That does not seem to be what is going on here, the abrupt bulge 3/4 of the way up the case body is not a headspace artifact, it is a screwed up chamber.
The question is, will factory brass continue to expand and seal in the deformed chamber.
I think the answer is "probably," there are wildcats with a lot more severe fireforming than that. But if you don't want to take the risk, the only cure is a new barrel. An alleged gunsmith talking about "reaming" is off his rocker, you cannot make a hole smaller with a reamer.
That does not seem to be what is going on here, the abrupt bulge 3/4 of the way up the case body is not a headspace artifact, it is a screwed up chamber.
The question is, will factory brass continue to expand and seal in the deformed chamber.
I think the answer is "probably," there are wildcats with a lot more severe fireforming than that. But if you don't want to take the risk, the only cure is a new barrel. An alleged gunsmith talking about "reaming" is off his rocker, you cannot make a hole smaller with a reamer.
The question isn't will the brass move enough to still seal the chamber properly, the question is; why is the chamber deformed compared to it's proper shape? It's obvious from the pictures that the brass has a slight shoulder about 2/3 of the way up the case wall, this will do two things that I can think of;
1. The case will be work hardened in that area and if you reload those cases they will start to crack in that area after a few reloadings.
2. The cases might start sticking in the chamber and extraction will be harder than normal (you might even get separation in that area with a hot hand load and then you'll have to deal with a stuck case).
I personally don't care how bad the spot is, it's not the way the rifle was designed to work and that's reason enough to either have it reamed (if the chamber is under spec and you have enough metal to ream it and still be within chamber specs) or have the barrel replaced.
1. The case will be work hardened in that area and if you reload those cases they will start to crack in that area after a few reloadings.
2. The cases might start sticking in the chamber and extraction will be harder than normal (you might even get separation in that area with a hot hand load and then you'll have to deal with a stuck case).
I personally don't care how bad the spot is, it's not the way the rifle was designed to work and that's reason enough to either have it reamed (if the chamber is under spec and you have enough metal to ream it and still be within chamber specs) or have the barrel replaced.
And then reloaders need to decide what happens to the case when fired, most believe the shoulder moves forward, if the shoulder moves forward I will assure the case has no choice but to stretch between the case head and case body.
And then there is the reloader; the reloader insist on sizing the case back to minimum length/full length size; problem, the reloader does not have a SAAMI factory minimum length and minimum diameter chamber. Once the case is fired and it is formed to the chamber stop sizing; I am the fan of cutting down on all that case travel. I am the fan of forming first and then firing.
One more time; I purchases a Model 70 Winchester 300 Win. Mag. The rifle had the ugliest chamber I have ever seen; the chamber was too long and the chamber was too large in diameter so I called Winchester, to them it was an easy fix, all they had to do was polish, ream and or hone. They could not tell me which of there three options would make the chamber shorter and smaller in diameter. They contacted the local warranty smith, a man I know and gave him instructions; he had the rifle for 2 months and then returned the rifle to Winchester. He said they sent it back because the chamber was too large and then I asked; "When did the chamber get too large, was it after you honed it, or polished it and or reamed it? That was when he informed me the chamber was too large when I brought it in.
Months went by; I called Winchester and tried t make them a deal, I wanted a chamber in that rifle that matched my dies or I wanted Winchester to make a set of dies that would match their chamber. Spring back? The fired cases had no memory of ever having been a 300 Winchester Mag. case. There was no way to stuff those cases back into a die, I have forming dies, I have BAR 300 Win, Mag. dies and I have small base dies for the 300 Win Mag. case.
Anyhow they returned the rifle in a new box, that had to be 14+ years ago; I dug it out 2 months ago thinking I would take it to the range with 100 rounds and then changed my mind. The bolt would not close on factory, new over the counter ammo or my reloads. I fixed-it and gave the ammo to someone that does not reload.
F. Guffey
That was where I got confused by what he said. To my uninformed and simple mind, it seems like the chamber must be too large in diameter, thus allowing the case to expand too much, and reaming is taking more metal off somewhere, whether in length or diameter. That seems intuitively like it might make the problem worse and/or change the gun to a different case size/caliber.
Does anyone have a ballpark idea of what reaming or replacing a barrel would cost? In doing so, could/would the gun be changed to a different caliber? If so, what (more common than .30-40 Krag) calibers would fit the same (M1895, I think) magazine and stripper clips?
How do I know if a gunsmith is worth his salt? Before I make irreversible changes, I want to have it checked out more thoroughly.
Jim Watson
Member
There is no "more common" caliber that will fit the Krag, its magazine is exquisitely designed for that one round. I googled some mention of caliber conversions but they sure sound expensive, except maybe .303 British. There were a number of target and varmint conversions back when Krags were cheap, but they were single shots, the better ones with the magazine completely removed.
A good quality Criterion replacement barrel is $227 plus installation. Here is a thread with somebody who does it.
http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=106823
Stripper clips? Krags don't have no stinkin' stripper clips. There were some kluges to try to make it a cliploader but the Army soon gave up and went with the Mauser system.
A good quality Criterion replacement barrel is $227 plus installation. Here is a thread with somebody who does it.
http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=106823
Stripper clips? Krags don't have no stinkin' stripper clips. There were some kluges to try to make it a cliploader but the Army soon gave up and went with the Mauser system.
Disclaimer: I'm not familiar w/ Krag internals; this is just generic advice.
When the smith talked about reaming, might he have meant to set the barrel back and then ream a new chamber? If the bore was good that's a way to 'rebarrel' using the existing barrel.
Whether that's cost effective vs. a new barrel is another question.
When the smith talked about reaming, might he have meant to set the barrel back and then ream a new chamber? If the bore was good that's a way to 'rebarrel' using the existing barrel.
Whether that's cost effective vs. a new barrel is another question.
Jim Watson
Member
He said ream, I took him to mean ream.
You probably could set the barrel back and rechamber, but how far to clean up the chamber and where do the sights end up?
It would have been less expensive in a bygone day when any reputable gunsmith had a lathe and expected to make a setup for every job. Nowadays, maybe not.
You probably could set the barrel back and rechamber, but how far to clean up the chamber and where do the sights end up?
It would have been less expensive in a bygone day when any reputable gunsmith had a lathe and expected to make a setup for every job. Nowadays, maybe not.
grouselips1
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Perhaps a polishing fool went to work on the chamber? Maybe an attempt at reaming, with a different caliber reamer? My thoughts are both to remove pits or some such. In either case, that is plain old "odd" and not a safe condition for shooting. There are still smiths out there who can set back the barrel and recut the chamber. Anyone familiar with the process will put the sights back at the 12 o clock position, typically putting a reference mark on the bottom of the receiver and the barrel to line up to. I can't recall the math, but there is a calculation by thread count to do this. Not familiar personally with the Krag barrel/shoulder set up, however on a Mauser, you don't even need to cut new threads, you simply set back the shoulder and the barrel face, clean up the receiver face with a light cut to promote a square surface to torque the barrel and recut the chamber. Depending on the action, you will need to correct the extractor cut out for proper clearance as well. I had a Mauser done about 3 years ago and the cost was 90 dollars. A competent smith can do this job on a Mauser in about an hour and a half. I have no idea of the idiosyncrasies of the Krag action!
Again I ask; "WHO MEASURES?" Manufacturers do not make cases for me to off set the difference in length between the chamber and case. Reloaders do not choose to use the thickest rim when off setting case travel. I do have case heads with strange patters on the case heads, if I was going to reduce case head travel I would use something like the strange patters.
F. Guffey
If you want your brass to last, I would replace the barrel--something is definitely hinky with that chamber. Krag brass is simply too expensive and hard to obtain right now to use as one time brass unless you are only firing a couple of rounds a year.
Replacing a Krag barrel is somewhat easier than replacing an Lee Enfield with the right tools. Numrich sells the Krag specific receiver wrench if you want to tackle it yourself or you can make one. Be aware that you will need to make a wrench head that properly supports the Krag receiver. Krag barrels are timed and need an extractor cut if you have a barrel blank made into a barrel for it.
You can buy new replacement barrels from the CMP and some other vendors like Deans Restorations with the extractor cut but in the white. I also think Numrich sells replacement barrels but do not know who their source is. I believe that they are blued and a bit more expensive than the Criterions sold by the first tow sellers. Criterion (A division of Krieger) makes both the 30 and 22 inch Krag barrels with the screw holes (tapped a bit different thread I understand) for the Krag's sights. Used barrels for the Krag, especially Springfield 03's that were reprofiled for the Krag or cut down sporter barrels for the Krag are around on ebay and Gunbroker but caveat emptor applies on used barrels over the internet. http://criterionbarrels.com/barrels/3040-krag
Replacing a Krag barrel is somewhat easier than replacing an Lee Enfield with the right tools. Numrich sells the Krag specific receiver wrench if you want to tackle it yourself or you can make one. Be aware that you will need to make a wrench head that properly supports the Krag receiver. Krag barrels are timed and need an extractor cut if you have a barrel blank made into a barrel for it.
You can buy new replacement barrels from the CMP and some other vendors like Deans Restorations with the extractor cut but in the white. I also think Numrich sells replacement barrels but do not know who their source is. I believe that they are blued and a bit more expensive than the Criterions sold by the first tow sellers. Criterion (A division of Krieger) makes both the 30 and 22 inch Krag barrels with the screw holes (tapped a bit different thread I understand) for the Krag's sights. Used barrels for the Krag, especially Springfield 03's that were reprofiled for the Krag or cut down sporter barrels for the Krag are around on ebay and Gunbroker but caveat emptor applies on used barrels over the internet. http://criterionbarrels.com/barrels/3040-krag
This rifle takes stripper clips and has a bottom-mounted fixed magazine. It's not a Krag-Jorgensen.
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