Organized Children and Guns?

[ObsidianOne]

This article/video made a couple questions come about when I read it.

http://www.fox4kc.com/wdaf-metro-ma...zed-his-neighborhood-20110616,0,4549569.story

It obviously came to the point where they were kicking in doors, throwing rocks, etc. to the point where a gun was pulled out.
While I think it's a poor idea to pull a gun on a bunch of "kids", still, what if they had not been scared and continued to try and assault him? What if he had fired?
It'd be a horrible mess all over, even if he wasn't convicted and sent off to prison or the kid's parents didn't sue him into a cardboard box, he would still have to live with the fact that he killed a kid, even if he was in the right.
What do you guys think about the situation? What could have been done differently or do you think he did the right thing?

 

[mrbro]

They were not a bunch of kids, they were 2 dozen adolescents suffering from testosterone overload. They will do things as a pack that each would not do alone. They will start a series of events that could be stopped at any time by the interjection of common sense, but their brains are on break. The amount of destruction and personal harm they can do should not be underestimated.

Standing and threatening only works if an Alpha in the group has a sudden cerebral awakening. This cannot be counted on occurring. Short of that, like any pack of wild animals, something has to happen to break up the group and scatter the pack. Sirens work well. Surprising them by doing something they had not considered can sometimes work, and did in this case. He was lucky.

 

[Dnaltrop]

An unarmed group with Ill intent is a Mob.

A Mob is no less a lethal weapon than a gun held to your head.

My 9 year old Is capable (technically) of putting every one of her rounds in a human sized target inside of 50 feet, but she openly lacks the desire to harm others. She's being raised "well"

The real weapon is any person of evil intent, and the will to act upon it.

While we should all hope that it never comes to the choice of shooting a youth, it's unrealistic to not at least keep the thought in your mind should the choice be between your life, or the lives of those you hold dear, and the life of an attacker of any age.

PS. If I seem harsh, I was likely the VERY FIRST person assaulted by a group of teens on the Hollywoood District platform for what was the brand new MAX "light rail" system here in Portland decades ago. A wispy 4th grader versus 5 teens wearing Grant HS team colors, None caught in the days before security cameras on every corner.

Some "Kids" do HORRIFFIC things when they get into groups.

 

[Heretic]

A perfect example of an armed citizen using the exact amount of necessary force. I must admit, I expected the media to make HIM out to be crazy or something.

 

[brasos]

I hope those kids learned their lesson...never, ever mess with a dude wearing a skirt AND a leather apron.

 

[Davey Wavey]

I'd have no problem shooting a kid who is making me fear for my life.

 

[csa77]

kids wanna act like adults then treat them like adults.

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[Armed_Leftist]

I hope those kids learned their lesson...never, ever mess with a dude wearing a skirt AND a leather apron.

Truer words have never been spoken. I think I'd call 911 first and then hold tight inside, only engaging a mob if absolutely necessary. That and I'd for sure make sure I fixed the bayonet to the Nagat before proceeding out the front door.

 

[Dr_B]

What in the world was that guy wearing?

 

[Cryogaijin]

It is situations like this that make me wish someone made a tiny rail mounted HD video camera that wouldn't interfere with a holster draw. Situation like that occurs, draw, flip camera on, shout down the problem, and still have video to give to the authorities.

 

[Dnaltrop]

Yea, but then you run into the same problem as with a gun mounted light, you HAVE to point it at someone to use it then.

Other option, a headset camera, if you have the presence of mind to strap it on in a heated situation.

My choice ...A good , multiple channel DVR+ Outdoor camera combo ( down to $400 at Costco in some of their ads) Capable of recording all channels at once, One on each corner of your house and the entryways would give you a much more thorough picture, and the ability to monitor your house through a Smartphone remotely in your absence.

Sick sad world we live in.

 

[pockets]

What could have been done differently? As one responder to the article said, "The school should have called police instead of displacing their problem onto the neighborhood."
A mob of teenagers is not a "bunch of kids", it's a mob. Kiltman did fine.
And hey, is that the guy from 'MythBusters' in disguise?
.

 

[22-rimfire]

He did right as far as I'm concerned. These "kids" turned into adults when they start threatening my life.

 

[Fred Fuller]

IMHO...

It was a bad move to go straight to confrontation without calling 9-1-1 first.

And it was a FAR worse move to GO OUTSIDE WITH A GUN. Roger MacBride is lucky he had a yard full of local middle school students and not the kind of big city youths who are accustomed to being threatened with guns.

Other opinions may vary of course...

lpl

 

[Flfiremedic]

Why would someone leave the safety, cover, and concealment of a home to ATTEND a confrontation. Call 911, ensure life safety of all inside your home, be prepared to defend yourself/loved ones if you are attacked.
"Group think" is a scarey but real concept...a group is more likely to escalate a situation than an individual. The group feeds off one another and they tend to provoke/encourage each other.

 

[Konstantin835]

The stupid things I see other kids do in my school make me not doubt at all they could seriously hurt or kill somebody when they have a mob mentality like this. That being said the smart thing would be to call 911 and wait. If you feel you are in real and present danger then yea, get the gun but thats a last resort. In this kind of situation would someone be justified in firing a warning shot if things escalated?

 

[Fred Fuller]

In this kind of situation would someone be justified in firing a warning shot if things escalated?

There's an old military saying: Every bullet has a billet. In other words, every bullet has to come to rest somewhere. That's an important thing to keep in mind, I think. And aside from all that, who can guarantee a warning shot won't produce an escalation in a touchy situation?

Every instructor I have ever had advised strongly against warning shots. I'd advise against them too, no matter what the perceived justification. It's important to keep in mind that the decisions we are forced by circumstance to make in fleeting fractions of a second, under terrible stress, most likely while forced into unenviable situations, will be evaluated as to legality and propriety by a lot of people under no stress, with all the time in the world, and in comfortable surroundings. Deciding what is a correct response under certain circumstances and what is clearly not a correct response before a decision is required will help avoid mistakes that could have very expensive consequences.

fwiw,

lpl

 

[heeler]

Well....Several comments and ideas here.
First after watching that video at this late hour of the night I had to get up and make myself a drink.
I truely fear this is only the beginning of these types of episodes and scenarios in all too many "changing" neighborhoods of this new America.
I dont say this as some wild eyed paranoid crazy but just so many things I hear and see more and more in the big cities of this nation.
I think it was Sunday I was online looking at some national news when I read about a relatively new type of crime being perpetrated by large groups of young teenage thugs.
Perhaps others of you read about this as well.
But basically a large group of teens go into a store and head in every direction at once grabbing and stealing everything they can can their rotten hands on and move out just as fast.
Sometimes assualting customers and store operators.
At this point this appears to be going on in the northeast but I am sure this movie will be coming to a city close to you and soon.
On the one hand the home owner being from a generation that this sort errant behavior is given a very dim view and not tolerated easily,went for his gun on his own property and in highly adrenalized state reacted to their actions.
Not the best move I agree as one of them could have hurled a cast iron skillet toward kilt man's head that he had just stolen from the adjoining neighbors breeched castle or heaven forbid pulled out his on stolen Glock and started blazing away.
Truely calling 911 and keeping the phone line open would have been better as it was extremely possible and likely the punks would have gone that extra step that could have then had several of them making their last mistake on this planet by entering the mans home while he had done everything up to that point to keep order and his own place secure.
God help todays youth.

 

[sidheshooter]

Great movie, bad tactics. Stay inside.

JMO.

 

[Ole Coot]

Difficult decision depending on where you happen to be in the States. I have personally witnessed kids in their early teens in DC during the 1968 riots dumping gasoline on a homeless person and setting him afire. This wasn't uncommon and naturally NO firearms allowed. Police did nothing while shops, liquor stores, pawn shops etc were looted. I spent three days in a building at 14th & R St.,NW waiting for a National Guard escort. Individually I could have "spanked" each kid but in a group they were like a pack of animals. If I had been armed I probably would have made a terrible mistake and tried to drive out. Now my age would help, but you're damned if you do and damned if you protect yourself.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

My Porch is part of my home. The punks are lucky one or more of them didn't die. I agree with Lee he should have called 911 first. If he had shot some of them it comes down to a disparity of force event.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

The way he acted was fine IMO. I guess he could have called 911 but there wasn't alot of time and he probably figured they would be chased off by someone confronting them. All he did was grab a rifle and show it to them to chase them off, no shots were fired and I doubt he even pointed the gun. Kids in groups are very bold and this may have been enough to stop them for good.

 

[MisterMike]

What in the world was that guy wearing?
__________________
My God! It's full of stars!

If nothing else, perhaps this episode will enhance the youths' respect for men who fly a "Don't Tread on Me" flag and wear a skirt with black socks. Boys and girls, this is not the sort of man to trifle with.

Seriously, from a purely legal perspective it would have been better for the guy not to try to intervene with a gang of kids smashing up a house, then resort to a gun when things spiraled out of control. However, the stark reality is that law enforcement and social responsibility are nonexistent in some communities. It may have had some small effect on the willingness of these young dopes to keep doing this sort of thing. I doubt that tactical effectiveness was foremost in his mind at any point in this episode.

 

[ZeSpectre]

Seriously, from a purely legal perspective it would have been better for the guy not to try to intervene with a gang of kids smashing up a house, then resort to a gun when things spiraled out of control.

Having read the article I'm puzzled as to when you consider this event to have been "under control" in the first place.

 

[Shadow 7D]

I am more scared of a mob of children than of a mob of adults
Kids will keep going where an adult will stop out of self preservation

Kids HAVE NO ETHICS OR MORALS
simply put, they have nothing to stop them, except fear and/or pain
they operate, especially in a mob, at the lowest level of the Maslow motivation.
they are on par with a intoxicated person, and they swarm.

there are plenty of stories of what happens when kids get out of control, they rape, murder and rob, just as well as older people, just with MUCH less consequence.