Origin of buckshot, and size?

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rusty bubbles

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I know it's loosely used as a term for a load from a "scattergun"- But I believe it originated in colonial days, when Americans hunted deer with smooth-bore muzzle loaders, and "buck shot"? Such large caliber shot is not used in Europe.-Are they used in the US by law enforcement forces? What would be the approximate diameter of the balls? Appreciate any information.

Thanks
Rusty
 
I'm certainly no expert, but I know there are different sizes of "buckshot" and I think 00 (called double-aught) is the largest. It seems to me I heard a double-aught buck pellet is about .25 caliber.
I have some 20-gauge #3 buckshot shotgun shells sitting in front of me. It says on the box there are 20 pellets in each shell. Each pellet appears to be about twice the size of a BB, but it's hard to tell.
I too always assumed "buckshot" meant shot that once upon a time was used for hunting deer. Maybe buckshot didn't come in anything other than double-aught back then. I'm pretty that sure shooting a deer at anything other than point blank range with the #3 buckshot loads I have in front of me would result in a wounded and lost animal that would die an agonizing death.
Hopefully a few others who know a lot more about shotguns and shotgun shells will chime in. Like I say - I don't know a heck of a lot about either.
 
00 Buck is on one size, and is about 33 caliber. There's also 0 buck and 000.
#4 buch is 25 caliber.
 
OOO buck has been used for light plinking loads in .38 Special for years. There is also currently a .410 shot load containing 000 buck. The Bond Derringer advertizes using it for defense on large critters.

00 buck is the most common law enforcement loading. The standard load is 9 pellets in 2 3/4" shells, with a magnum load of 12 pellets in 2 3/4" also being available (which was our duty load). Now they have "light recoil" 00 buck loads for sissies.............

Some departments use #4 buck, but they've found that it's not as effective as 00 buck, especially for penetrating car doors and windshields. The .24 caliber round ball doesn't contain enough energy.

The hits I've seen with 00 buck were fatal when placed in the chest area.

Hope this helps.

Fred
 
Since it sounds like you're not so sure about this, let me state the obvious:

1. Buckshot refers to larger shot for use on medium game or two-legged dangerous animals ("people"). It's used by the police, the military, and anyone with a shotgun for home defense and more than two brain cells to rub together (although some intelligent people prefer solid slugs in shotguns), pretty much anywhere in the world people use shotguns for hunting or defense. I guarantee you that any shotgun used by military or law enforecement in Europe is most likely loaded almost exclusively with buckshot. Italy and Russia make many fine military and civilian shotguns, for example. I will conced that in most of Europe, non-military, non-police shotguns may be unlikely to be used for anything other than birds or maybe small game, so they would be loaded with birdshot, not buckshot.

2. Birdshot refers to VERY small shot for use on clay targets, birds, and small game such as rabbits. There are some intermediate loads for turkey and larger birds, but even these loads are almost completely unsatisfactory for use against criminals.

3. There are also solid slug loads (an 18mm bullet) that fire one projectile with a very large diameter, mass, and energy. These are used for medium to large game or the aforementioned two-legged dangerous animals, and at greater range than buckshot.

4. Hollywood being what it is, has so thoroughly corrupted people's already-limited understanding of these things, that, unfortunately, a lot of people have a VERY vague understanding of the differences between these, and just call anything coming out of a shotgun's barrel "buckshot". One show I saw recently had a hunter refer to using buckshot to finish off the animal that became dinner while spitting tiny, tiny, tiny bits of lead shot out of their food (that 70's show).

Cant help you with the specific time and place of word origin, but yes, it does refer to hunting male deer (buck), and shot, as in round lead balls fired from a cannon or small arm. The practice of firing round ball ammunition (even multiple balls in one shot), however, dates back well before British colonials arriving in what is now US territory.
 
Thanks again all you guys,for sharing your knowledge so freely - Oh and Archangel-I'm printing that great post of the shot sizes-that goes on the wall for "future reference !"

All the best
Rusty
 
Here is a more complete list including Birdshot in picture form. Hope it helps...
ArchAngelCD,
Can you tell me what company's shot that is? I have been looking for some in the diameters shown.
Thanks
 
"what does a fella hunt with BB shot?"

It's been a while since I hunted ducks or geese because I gave it up when we couldn't use lead shot for migratory waterfowl anymore. But back in the days before lead shot was banned for hunting migratory water fowl, BB size shot was the largest size allowed by the regulations.
Things may have changed. I'm not even sure if steel and tungsten shot sizes are the same as lead shot sizes. Like I say - I don't hunt ducks and geese anymore so I don't keep up with shotguns and shotgun shells for hunting waterfowl.
 
Buckshot is needed for longer range lethality (> 20 yards is sometimes needed in law enforcement), and from a shotgun (18" barrel or longer), smaller shot offers no real advantage for defensive purposes.

But for very close range (~10-20 feet), .410/45 colt pistols (Taurus Judge, etc.), #4 shot will penetrate an average of almost 4", but with 117 such wounds from a 11/16 oz load, will certainly do the job. And with a reported 16" pattern at 10', they might just be the ultimate close quarters home/auto defense handgun, particularly when alternately loaded with slugs, 000 buck (only 5 pellets though in a 3" shell), or 45 colt for penetrating structure.

Andy
 
Anything that only penetrates 4" is almost worthless as far as stopping a threat. The FBI and IWBC suggest at LEAST 12" of penetration. That 4" penetrating shot you recommend is a great way to make a nasty, painful, crater type wound that will NOT stop anyone hopped up on adrenaline or drugs, or at greater ranges, swiss cheese wound that will do squat unless you deliberately aim for the face. Even so, you will have one very pissed off BG to deal with. If it's necessary to shoot someone, a load like that will likely get YOU hurt or killed, and if you survive, you will quite possibly face prosecution or civil suit foor a "vicious" attack meant to permanently wound, rather than "stop".

If that close quaters load you describe with birdshot was so effective, you would see it actually being used by professionals. #4 birdshot is for use on RABBITS, not humans. I would have a better chance of stopping a threat with a medium length barrel .22 than a .410 loaded with birdshot.

If you have a .45 colt and your target is at short range, just use a heavy, soft slug. A .410 shotshell with BUCKSHOT would be fine too. But birdshot from a PISTOL for HD? Now I've heard it all. In fact, birdshot out of a pistol VS a PROVEN manstopping .45 colt? I'm not about to volunteer to stand in front of either one, but given the choice, I would opt to stand in front of the birdshot, any day of the week.
 
Birdshot is for the birds (and small animals). Buckshot is for larger critters. 4" of penetration is only a nice start, 12"+ is much better IMHO. Yes, I'm one of those fools who thinks 00 buckshot is just right for home defense use. Rabid dogs, rabid people, whatever..... I'm covered for the day I hope never comes.
 
Birdshot as a Defense Load
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.

But doesn't 00 Buck penetrate too much in interior walls to be a "safe" load in a home?
Yes, it does penetrate a lot. But any load that is going to be effective will need to penetrate walls to have enough power to penetrate bad guys. If our only concern was to be sure we didn't penetrate walls, we would use BB guns. However, BB guns will not stop bad guys.

Therefore, we must use loads that will STOP bad guys, and this means that they will also penetrate walls. So, be sure you hit the bad guy and do not shoot into walls where loved ones are on the other side.


The above was copied from here –

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm
 
I'm glad my post was a help. I know it went a long way in helping me to understand the differences when I first saw that picture.

eliphalet,
That isn't from a company and the sizes shown are just that, sizes. All you need to do is decide which size will fill your needs and then buy that size shot.

Like said above, Birdshot really isn't a good choice for SD, I like #4 Buckshot for that. #4 Buck will still stop a man size target but will have less a chance of over-penetration that 00 Buck.
 
There seems to be some confusion about shot sizes here, concerning the #4 shot size. There's a #4 birdshot, and a #4 buckshot. A huge difference between the two. #4 birdshot is .190 diameter, #4 buckshot is .240. The #4 birdshot would be a poor choice for personal defense, unless the BG was at point blank range. However #4 buckshot is great for home defense, because it has less penetration, it is less likely to go through an outer wall to be lethal outside the home.

The normal 2 ¾ load is 24 #4 pellets. Since it is close to 22 caliber, imagine 22 long rifle bullets fired at the same time! No, I'm not saying they'll penetrate as well as a conical 22 rifle bullet, but the quantity makes up for the penetration in shock value.

A word about loading buckshot. It is a special circumstance for loading it. You do NOT simply weigh out 1, 1 1/8, or 1¼ ounces of buckshot. It is loaded by stacking 2, 3, or 4 balls per layer and a certain number per shell. The Lyman shotshell handbook has specific loads in it for loading buckshot. Certain sizes will work in certain gauges, but not in others.

Factory loaded buckshot has developed a long way from the old days. It was simply dumped in on top of fiber wads and roll crimped. Now it is sometimes plated with copper or even nickel, and buffered with granulated plastic. The modern shells pattern much better, and react to chokes better. You CAN duplicate the factory stuff by buying plastic buffer and buying plated buckshot. Ballistic products has the components and loading data as well.
 
Here's a link to a shot size chart. Note that European and U.S. sizes aren't always the same. And steel shot is the same diameter as lead shot, but lighter in weight so that larger sizes are used when replacing lead shot. BB is a good size in lead for geese, but since we can't use lead anymore for waterfowl, steel geese loads used "F" and even #3 and #4 buck shot.
 
Did anyone notice the ranges I mentioned with #4 birdshot (not #4 buckshot)? Those ARE point blank ranges. Show me another handgun load that spreads 16" at 10 FEET (not yards!) and has a pattern density to ensure several SCORE vital hits with one shot to the torso. Torso hits cause incapacitation from loss of blood pressure or from severing the spinal column. A 16" circle of torso decimated 4" deep will cause sufficient blood loss much faster than any single projectile unless one is lucky enough to hit the spine, the heart, or the main arteries immediately adjacent to the heart.

The reason 8" of penetration is a suggested minimum for a single projectile is two-fold: the single projectile may strike bone, reducing penetration substantially, and that an 8" deep wound channel is necessary to cause sufficient blood loss from depth and expansion. Even with 85 #4 projectiles (only half what is available in a 3" .410 load), the wound channel need not be nearly as deep to cause the same blood loss, and only a fraction of those projectiles will be obstructed by bone.

There are lots of places on the torso that a single stab with a 4" ice pick will not even be fatal, let alone quickly incapacitating. But give me more than a hundred instantaneous stabs, and the results should be obvious.

Granted, properly aimed, a 12 ga shotgun with 00 buck is the most lethal weapon available for general self defense. But it must be aimed; the pattern spread at ranges typically encountered inside a house (let alone a car-jacking!) is non-existent, thus rendering the weapon only slightly more useful than a rifle at close range.

Andy
 
Big Jake.

With a 16" cone, and "not aiming", you will lose at least half of your projectiles.

On top of that, your projectiles are not large enough in diameter to reliably drop blood pressue in major organs.

Most of those major organs, especially for a frontal shot, are protected by bone and cartilege.

The recommended penetration is NOT 8", but 12".

The reason for the 12" penetration is to account for a number of factors, two of them being an arm, bone or thick clothing being in the way, and still getting sufficient penetration to reach vitals, or a very large fat/muscled person with a wide torso (fat or body builder types). In other words, the sort of people you would need a gun to defend yourself from in the first place.

I've seen a number of violent, large type who easily have more than 4" between skin and vitals in the torso, and if you add a thick jacket, you can pretty much forget doing more than pissing them off. Even a small gun like a .380 with ball ammo or hollowpoint would have a MUCH better chance than the .410/45 colt loaded with birdshot of doing enough damage to STOP such a person immediately. Even if you did manage to score lethal hits, you would be EXTREMELY unlikely to score immediately stopping hits. The guy would die, minutes or hours later, after he beat you over the head with whatever was handy. You would have to be luckier than James Bond at the roulette table to score a debilitating hit on the central nervous system with that load.

If you use that .45 colt with a birdshot load. Make sure you grind off the front sight blade so it hurts less. Might want to oil the outside of the barrel real good too.

Recap: Won't penetrate enough on big threats, especially with heavy clothes. If you manage to hit vitals with a few pellets, the wounds won't be large enough in diamater to cause rapid blood pressure drop. The guy may still be active enough to finish you.

===========

The formula for stopping a threat is simple. Start with a weapon that gives sufficient, PROVEN penetration to hit vitals, given a near-worst case situation (fat, muscle, winter clothing, bone). Then use accurate shot placement, and fire until the threat stops being a threat.

Any variance from this is likely to get you killed.

If you want to use birdshot, the barrel should be touching the perp's skin, at which point, you might as well use a solid slug anyway.

:rolleyes:

If you want to test your birdshot theory, find a convenient medium/large animal, piss it off, and shoot (make sure you have a game tag and hunting license). I would highly recommend the next five rounds be premium hunting ammo, since I sincerely wish you well.
 
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